What Is God's Rationale?

[POI]

Apologists have argued for various forms of Biblical slavery. Apparently, God did not just abolish the topic of slavery entirely, but instead created a special list of can do's and cannot do's for this category. HOWEVER, where the topic of lying is concerned, we see no such list of special instructions? And yet, off the top of one's head, we can formulate all sorts of situationals, where lying may even be deemed the best thing to do in a given set of circumstances.

For debate:

In the Bible, why isn't the topic of <lying> granted with, at least, the same level of flexibility and/or lattitude as the topic of <slavery>?

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to POI in post #58]

I do not need to reconcile my beliefs with anyone else.

[POI]

[Replying to POI in post #58]

I do not need to reconcile my beliefs with anyone else.

Thanks for the 'debate', or the lack-there-of. My response stands, in post 58, if you should change your mind.

[Diogenes]

[Replying to POI in post #58]

I do not need to reconcile my beliefs with anyone else.

No, of course not. That is a personal issue.
But this is a debating site. "I do not need..." is the functional equivalent of "I cannot."

The obviously flawed compilation of ancient writings that comprise 'The Bible' collectively portray squishy logic re: slavery and lying. Abraham and Jacob, two of the main and god favored characters of the Bible, lie their hearts out in important situations. The Bible is equally conflicted about slavery and [sadly] declares slavery is fine when it is intertribal, but a sin when it is within the tribe.

None of this makes any sense until we recall the 'Old Testament' is a tribal document. It was never intended to be a universal moral code. It was clearly written from the POV of one particular tribe with no consideration of others. The 'god' [lower case] of the Bible is not 'God.' 'He' is an icon of a tribe, invented to encourage and sustain one tribe among thousands, telling them they are superior and may be dishonest and enslave others, outside the tribe.

A true God would be the God of all, a universal God, not a man made 'god' serving the interests of a single tribe.

[POI]

I would like to rekindle this topic. Theists have placed forth (2) arguments for lying:

1) All lies are bad.
2) Some lies are bad, but "well-intended" lies are not bad. The Bible does not issue a Commandment that all lies are bad, but instead a narrow description of "lies".

However, we have (2) theists engaging, and also (2) different opinions? Christians cannot even agree about what God thinks is, and is not a sin, when referring to the topic of lying? Seems we first need some unification about what God considers a sin, in regard to 'lying'?

Christians, once we get this little pickle worked out, I guess we can then further engage the 'slavery' topic as well. Case/point, I already tried to engage AquinasforGod in post 58, but he bailed out.

[Diogenes]

I would like to rekindle this topic. Theists have placed forth (2) arguments for lying:

1) All lies are bad.
2) Some lies are bad, but "well-intended" lies are not bad. The Bible does not issue a Commandment that all lies are bad, but instead a narrow description of "lies".

However, we have (2) theists engaging, and also (2) different opinions? Christians cannot even agree about what God thinks is, and is not a sin, when referring to the topic of lying? Seems we first need some unification about what God considers a sin, in regard to 'lying'?

Christians, once we get this little pickle worked out, I guess we can then further engage the 'slavery' topic as well. Case/point, I already tried to engage AquinasforGod in post 58, but he bailed out.

Technically, at least in the Decalogue, the command is to "not bear false witness." That is, not to lie publicly. In it's narrowest sense it could be limited to perjury in court or any other public arena or situation where the absolute truth is important.

But there is a more imortant issue. When I consider how obvious is this fraud of religion, or at least the Abrahamic ones that offer up this absurd characiture the 'god' of the Bible, I wonder why address this utter nonsense at all. Why even participate in this forum. I am tired of pointing out the obvious to people who refuse to accept it.

[Hawkins]

Slavery is actually a human establishment endorsed (if not built) by the most moral humans on earth back to the point of history. So the first question to ask is, why the most moral humans shall endorse slavery. The second question is, why shall God be distracted by such a human establishment from the most moral humans while the priority is to deliver salvation to human kind (not fighting the most moral of them).

God established Israel as a necessary vessel for His truth to be carried forward across history to reach today's humankind. God's bottom line is the Hebrews are disallowed to enslave Hebrews. In terms of counting the establishment from the most moral humans, He ordered the Jews to release all slaves but the Jews refused even it explicity a command from their very God.

Jeremiah 34:11
But afterward they changed their minds and took back the slaves they had freed and enslaved them again.

They can't even keep the bottom line God set forth for them, not the mention countering the whole slavery establishment. God didn't underestimated the situation (of influence capable of being made by the most moral humans), and woundn't allow it to distract His salvation job neither.

Paul thus skillfully condemns the slave traders instead of the slave owners (as it involves the condemnation of the most moral humans on earth, of whom the influence shouldn't be underestimated),

1 Timothy 1:10
for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers......


That being said. God most often turns what's bad to what's good. One of the many reasons why the most moral endorsed slavery is that the poor may have to sell themselves as slaves to survive poverty and etc. God encourages slaves to be obedient so show who they are to be saved, as both Law and covenants are for the assessment of both human obedience and human faith. On the other hand, even the most brutal slaves owners would love obedient slaves over disobedient slaves. Obedient slaves are thus protected. The priority of salvation is put above all.

[POI]

Technically, at least in the Decalogue, the command is to "not bear false witness." That is, not to lie publicly. In it's narrowest sense it could be limited to perjury in court or any other public arena or situation where the absolute truth is important.

Assuming all Christians agree with you, I guess the next question(s) to ask the believing Christian would be:

1) This means all other lies are a-okay? I doubt it.
2) And if not, then how in the heck does the Christian distinguish which lies are, and are not, still a sin? And why then read the Bible to tell us about what God's do's and don'ts are, if we know them outside what the Bible says anyways?

But there is a more imortant issue. When I consider how obvious is this fraud of religion, or at least the Abrahamic ones that offer up this absurd characiture the 'god' of the Bible, I wonder why address this utter nonsense at all. Why even participate in this forum. I am tired of pointing out the obvious to people who refuse to accept it.

I too get tired of pointing out the absurdities. I'll tell you why I remain here:

- So many people still believe this nonsense, but I doubt many of them truly investigate or think about all its claims. But maybe they still come here to read stuff, instead of reading the Bible itself.
- It keeps my brain stimulated and exercised, as the topic of religion feeds one into many categories.
- Much of my family believes this stuff, and rather than offend them, I pose exchanges here instead to vet out my questions.
- Maybe some come here to actually get answers, and maybe in some way, my contribution(s) may help a little.
- It's fun, sometimes.
- Sometimes I even change my view, after posing a topic or engaging a topic. Which does not, in any way, move me any closer to belief, but instead gains me a differing perspective of what this Bible book is saying on the particular topic in question.

[POI]

Slavery is actually a human establishment endorsed (if not built) by the most moral humans on earth back to the point of history.

Please prove this statement. Without doing so, the rest of your response is likely based upon a false premise.

That being said. God most often turns what's bad to what's good.

False. God has no problem telling us what not to do. And yet, slavery does not look to make the list.

One of the many reasons why the most moral endorsed slavery is that the poor may have to sell themselves as slaves to survive poverty and etc.

What about the ones born into lifetime slavery, tricked into lifetime slavery, and some women who were to be lifetime slaves?

God encourages slaves to be obedient so show who they are to be saved, as both Law and covenants are for the assessment of both human obedience and human faith.

God would already know one's character. The only reason such nonsense was written, was to trick the slaves into working harder and not run away.

On the other hand, even the most brutal slaves owners would love obedient slaves over disobedient slaves. Obedient slaves are thus protected. The priority of salvation is put above all.

Baseless claim.... When the Bible speaks about beating the slave, the Bible offers no instruction on how often, how much, or for what reason(s) a slave master can beat their slave(s). This is sloppy work by the Bible writers. The only caveat the Bible offers is "do not kill them or knock out their eyes/teeth." Which is probably, in part, why slave masters beat their slaves on the back side. It's hard to do any of these three things when whipping them on their backs.

Obedient or not, if a slave got sick, too old, or was physically unable to do the requested task, the master could justifiably beat them.

[TRANSPONDER]

I always feel profoundly disturbed when people start arguing that slavery is fine really...protects and looks after slaves who know their place and do what they're told.