Help with Hell

[Margrove]

Hello.

Not sure this is the right forum.

Hell in the Old Testament was the Hebrew Gê-hinnōm or Sheʾōl. The first place actually exists and is a desolate valley close to Jerusalem where nothing grows. Here there is a connection with fire, because seems like the place was used to incinerate children to Moloch. The second Hebrew denomination (Sheol) simply means pit, grave. To me both convey the meaning of desolation, abandonment, nothingness, void, and the punishment for the malignant souls derives from that "void".

Also, a rabi mentioned during an interview that the stay of the malignant soul at the Hebrew Hell can last up to one year only. This limited time stay seems to be like the concept of Purgatory in the Christian faith, where the souls stay for a limited time until they repent or not and are shuttled either to Heaven or Hell according to each case.

Other sources say that the Christian Hell was adpoted from the Greek tradition. However, the Roman Hell (Hades) is a cold, dark labyrinth guarded by Cerberus. The Roman Hell is not fiery, but cold. Celtic Hell is usually at the bottom of water bodies as it could be the case at La Thène where archaeologists interpret the offerings found at the bottom of the Neuchâtel lake as offerings to the spirits that live in the otherworld. Therefore, the fire from Hell did not came from Hebrew, Roman, Greek or Celtic tradition.

In the New Testament, we see very few mentions to the "fire of Hell" in Matthew 5:22, 18:9; James 3:6. In the Revelation, if I am not mistaken, it mentions that the Antichrist will be thrown in the hell of fire and perish.

Form where it came the fiery Hell mentioned in the Bible? Is it native to the Christian religion or is it imported from another religion?

[2timothy316]

This indeed would be the right forum.

The original meaning of the English word hell or hel means to cover up or conceal. The word hell was also not the best translation because it was used for both Greek words Hades and Gehenna. However, these are not the same place. But the concept of a place of torment for the dead predates Christianity as you pointed out. However, there is another concept that many people overlook and how does the Bible describe the conduction of a person after they die.

Speaking of the dead the Bible says:
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten." Ecc 9:5
"His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish." Psalm 146:4

The concept of an immortal soul in Christianity likely came from philosophical ideas in the 2nd and 3rd centuries. Paul and John wrote that even their time such ideas were starting to gain traction while they were alive and said that such teachings would take over after they died. Of course since they were 'God Breathed' they were correct. The immortal soul concept became the a cornerstone teaching of Christendom and personally feel this is when real Christianity became suppressed and Acts 20:29, 30 was fulfilled.

[Margrove]

Thank you.

The information about the germanic hell is interesting in its meaning (conceal). I did not know that the concept of immortality entered into Christianism in the 2nd Century. Also the interpretation of Acts 20:29, 30 is quite enticing. The original Christian tenements proposed by the Christ seem to be added with all sorts of non-Christian thoughts along the centuries.

As we can see, in most of the interpretations from the cultures listed by you and me, the meaning of hell is not something actively fiery, furious but etimologically has a passive meaning: conceal (Germanic), oblivion (Ecclesiates 9:5; Psalm 146:4), desolated place (Hebrew), labyringh (Greek), cold place (Roman), watery cold place (Celtic). The Celtic called hell the Proto-Celtic *borrògñ (modern Irish bròn) which in gaelic means sorrow, anguish, and theirs was usually at the bottom of water bodies (sea, lakes), therefore a dark and cold place. The Germanic conceal matches too, if we see it as a hidden place, or a place where the souls are kept hidden and forgotten (oblivion) from the world of the living.

They could not have originated the "fire" from hell, this seems to be a later addition to the Christian faith. Is there any information when the "Hell=fire" concept was incorporated into the Christian belief? Is it lalte Medieval or from the Renascence?

[2timothy316]

Thank you.

The information about the germanic hell is interesting in its meaning (conceal). I did not know that the concept of immortality entered into Christianism in the 2nd Century. Also the interpretation of Acts 20:29, 30 is quite enticing. The original Christian tenements proposed by the Christ seem to be added with all sorts of non-Christian thoughts along the centuries.

As we can see, in most of the interpretations from the cultures listed by you and me, the meaning of hell is not something actively fiery, furious but etimologically has a passive meaning: conceal (Germanic), oblivion (Ecclesiates 9:5; Psalm 146:4), desolated place (Hebrew), labyringh (Greek), cold place (Roman), watery cold place (Celtic). The Celtic called hell the Proto-Celtic *borrògñ (modern Irish bròn) which in gaelic means sorrow, anguish, and theirs was usually at the bottom of water bodies (sea, lakes), therefore a dark and cold place. The Germanic conceal matches too, if we see it as a hidden place, or a place where the souls are kept hidden and forgotten (oblivion) from the world of the living.

They could not have originated the "fire" from hell, this seems to be a later addition to the Christian faith. Is there any information when the "Hell=fire" concept was incorporated into the Christian belief? Is it lalte Medieval or from the Renascence?

In 240 AD Tertullian of Carthage is said to be one that adopted the torture of the wicked and that a person has an eternal soul. The why it was added is up for debate. Some say it was because Christians were being burned for their faith in that time and the teaching came as a way to show that those doing such things will themselves be on fire forever. Perhaps a 'feel better, you will have your revenge' teaching? The concept of torture or something good happening after death by some means had been around for thousands of years. The only thing can many accept is that it was adopted as a foreign teaching compared to the 1st century Christian teachings. It seems the teaching came with a bundle of other foreign teachings that were not taught in the 1st century.

[Miles]

In 240 AD Tertullian of Carthage is said to be one that adopted the torture of the wicked . . .

Only after it had been long in place

That place of "eternal punishment"(1) where "their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur"(2) to be "tormented day and night forever and ever"(3) suffering "the punishment of eternal destruction."(4) And where "committed . . . to chains of gloomy darkness."(5) "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."(6) "For the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God"(7) who claims “Vengeance is mine, I will repay. . . .." (8)

........KEY
1. Matthew 25:46
2. Revelation 21:8
3. Revelation 20:10
4. 2 Thessalonians 1:9
5. Jude 1:12-13
6. Matthew 13:50
7. Exodus 34:14
8. Hebrews 10:26-31
`

None having been written later than A.D. 94-96 (Revelation)

. . . and that a person has an eternal soul.

Ah, Jesus beat him by about 200 years when he said

Matthew 25:46
46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Of course, if you don't believe it's the soul that goes into "eternal punishment" and "eternal life," we'll need a very good explanation as to what it is that does.
And if something that exists eternally isn't immortal . . .

im·mor·tal
adjective: immortal

• living forever; never dying or decaying.

source: Oxford Languages Dictionary

what does "eternally" mean? HINT:

e·ter·nal·ly
adverb: eternally

• in a way that continues or lasts forever; permanently.

source: Oxford Languages Dictionary

So, when it comes to people we have immortal = eternal AND eternal = immortal


.

[myth-one.com]

That place of "eternal punishment"(1) where "their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur"(2) to be "tormented day and night forever and ever"(3) suffering "the punishment of eternal destruction."(4) And where "committed . . . to chains of gloomy darkness."(5) "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."(6) "For the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God"(7) who claims “Vengeance is mine, I will repay. . . .." (8)

........KEY
1. Matthew 25:46
2. Revelation 21:8
3. Revelation 20:10
4. 2 Thessalonians 1:9
5. Jude 1:12-13
6. Matthew 13:50
7. Exodus 34:14
8. Hebrews 10:26-31

Matthew 25:46
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The punishment or wages of sin is death, and death lasts forever.

Revelation 21:8
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

This describes how the wages of sin will be accomplished by their quick second death in the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Only one being is said to be tormented day and night for ever in this verse -- the devil that deceived them!

2 Thessalonians 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Once again, the wages of sin is everlasting death or destruction.

Jude 1:12-13
These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

The dead know absolutely nothing, thus everlasting blackness for ever.

Matthew 13:50
And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Only lasting until the few seconds before they quickly perish in the lake of fire.

Exodus 34:14
For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

Yes, that's one of the ten commandments:

Exodus 20:3
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Hebrews 10:26-31
. . . vengence . . .

God will honor each humans choice of everlasting life or everlasting life:

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life,

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment (the second death), but the righteous into eternal life.

Of course if you don't believe it's the soul that goes into "eternal punishment" and "eternal life," we'll need a very good explanation as to what it is that does.

The only beings which have everlasting life are spiritual bodied beings.

But man is a physical bodied being which will die.

Eternal punishment in regards to man is the second death.

Eternal life in regards to mankind is attained by being born again as a spiritual bodied being which can never die -- thus born into immortality.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh.

That which is born of the Spirit (God) is spirit.

Thus, to attain eternal life, man must be born again of the Spirit as a spiritual bodied being.

<==========================>

On an aside, the myth of man having an "immortal soul" is a common false belief in many Christian religious denominations. Here is the root of that false belief:

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: (Genesis 3:4)

Satan lied when he informed Eve that she would live forever, "Ye shall not surely die." Mankind has pretty much accepted that lie as truth ever since.

Man can understand things of the physical world.

We know that we die. We see decaying animals and know that our bodies end up likewise. The part we do not understand is our personalities, our thinking processes, our emotions, our non-physical processes. These are the processes which many believe separates us from the other animals. We even give it a name, calling it our "soul," and assigning to each soul eternal life.

Thus, we are the perfect victims for believing the lie of Satan!

[kjw47]

[Replying to Margrove in post #1]


The Hebrew word-Sheol = the Greek word Hades, both translate-the grave--Hades= hell.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Margrove in post #1]


The Hebrew word-Sheol = the Greek word Hades, both translate-the grave--Hades= hell.

Yes, it is very simple. "Hell" = "Hades" = the grave. The KJV has people confused because it takes other words and translates them also as "Hell." "Gehenna" was a garbage dump where even bodies of criminals were thrown to completely vanish at length. It is found at :

Matthew 5:22, 29, 30; Matthew 10:28; Matthew 18:9; Matthew 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 12:5

All it means is that the person in Gehenna will be totally obliterated, just as the trash in the garbage dump. But, now, that is confused with "Hades," and every where "Gehenna" is found; in the KJV and other versions that follow it, it is substituted with "Hell." This is why people confuse the meaning of the garbage dump with the actual meaning of "Hell" which is the grave. Lousy translations. "Tartarus" (2Peter 2:4) is also replaced with "Hell" in many versions. All of this, of course, leads people to believe that "Hell" or "Hades" is a fiery place where people are tortured. It is not a teaching of Jesus and very early Christianity.

Fire is spoken of, yet it does not mean that the evil people will be literally burned with fire forever. Wherever fire is mentioned, it is referring to the total obliteration of the individual. It is symbolic of complete destruction. (Even in Revelation 20:14.)

So, to summarize, "Hades" = "Hell" = the grave.
"Gehenna" = burning dump, symbolic for complete destruction
"Tartarus" = the state of being to which the Devil and his minions are consigned, i.e. spiritual darkness (not an actual place)
"Fire" = symbolic for total annihilation

Is it any wonder people are confused about "Hell?"

[1213]

...
Form where it came the fiery Hell mentioned in the Bible?

I think it comes from these:

And the Devil leading them astray was thrown into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were . And they were tormented day and night forever and ever.
Rev. 20:10

And if your hand offend you, cut it off. For it is profitable for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go away into Hell, into the fire that cannot be put out,
Mark. 9:43

And I saw the dead, the small and the great, standing before God. And books were opened. And another Book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of the things written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and Hades gave up the dead in them. And they were each judged according to their works. And death and Hades were thrown into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death. And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the Lake of Fire.
Rev. 20:12-15

Don’t be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.
Matt. 10:28

In my opinion it is good to notice, Hades is often translated hell and also Gehenna can be called hell, because it is the fire lake that burns forever. They are not the same, because Hades is thrown to the fire lake in the end.

[William]

Hello.

Not sure this is the right forum.

Hell in the Old Testament was the Hebrew Gê-hinnōm or Sheʾōl. The first place actually exists and is a desolate valley close to Jerusalem where nothing grows. Here there is a connection with fire, because seems like the place was used to incinerate children to Moloch. The second Hebrew denomination (Sheol) simply means pit, grave. To me both convey the meaning of desolation, abandonment, nothingness, void, and the punishment for the malignant souls derives from that "void".

Also, a rabi mentioned during an interview that the stay of the malignant soul at the Hebrew Hell can last up to one year only. This limited time stay seems to be like the concept of Purgatory in the Christian faith, where the souls stay for a limited time until they repent or not and are shuttled either to Heaven or Hell according to each case.

Other sources say that the Christian Hell was adpoted from the Greek tradition. However, the Roman Hell (Hades) is a cold, dark labyrinth guarded by Cerberus. The Roman Hell is not fiery, but cold. Celtic Hell is usually at the bottom of water bodies as it could be the case at La Thène where archaeologists interpret the offerings found at the bottom of the Neuchâtel lake as offerings to the spirits that live in the otherworld. Therefore, the fire from Hell did not came from Hebrew, Roman, Greek or Celtic tradition.

In the New Testament, we see very few mentions to the "fire of Hell" in Matthew 5:22, 18:9; James 3:6. In the Revelation, if I am not mistaken, it mentions that the Antichrist will be thrown in the hell of fire and perish.

Form where it came the fiery Hell mentioned in the Bible? Is it native to the Christian religion or is it imported from another religion?

It is the idea of entering hellish states after the personality which was grown through the earth experience moves on from the dead body it once possessed.
Depending upon the nature of the personality, depends upon what will happen to said personality. What it will create for itself through its belief system, primary attitude, how it conducted itself through the human experience and other factors along those lines. How it thinks and feels about itself in relation to the objective things it has/is/will experience.

Jesus gives the general impression that it is advantageous for a personality to "adjust their approach" to the inevitable death of the human body, in order to "land safely" in the next (ongoing) experience as an individual personality.

The idea of hells (and heavens) originates in the natural phenomena many human personalities experience and report on to do with NDEs OOBEs drug "trips" and other things associated with mindfulness and experienced as real.