The right questions...

[Waterfall]

Namaskaram...

Are the right questions to be found in the Bible? They just seems to accept "the stories" and not ask questions? I do not believe in the story about Adam and Eve and have some questions for those who does, because why did Adam and Eve put children into this world of suffering and death? Did God not explain things to them? Wait with children til you get (back) to Paradise? Just live and die and I will recreate you? Commit suicide? Why not? 930 years is a long time to wait with sex? Paradise is just around the corner? You just have to die first? Then everything will be alright? You will wake up in Paradise and can have all the sex in the world you want? And nobody else has to suffer and die? Good deal? For inspiration...









Your friend forever

Waterfall

[TRANSPONDER]

We are here to ask the questions, and to propose a few answers. Yes..or no, the Bible stories make no sense. But then, none of the other religions make sense either. Of course neither does quantum physics, but if persuasive evidence is presented, we'll consider even miracles. Say what you like, I have to admit that otseng's case for the shroud has supportive evidence. Genesis, the Nativity, the resurrection...and most of the rest of the Book does not. Indeed, the evidence is against it, and the same goes for the other religions, or that is what I'm here to argue.

Here's a little story...stop me if you've heard it before. On my former board I looked up the 'Babes and sucklings' prophecy in Psalms. I noticed it was different and said so. A theist argued that it was correct in Jesus' times and the Mazoretic text was a mistranslation. After discussion I was directed to the Qumran version and it was as per the Nt. I put up my hand and said the case for Matthew was supported - that was how it was read in Jesus' time. i was persuaded by the evidence.

But here the matter of the Septuagint came up and I thought that maybe the Septuagint was right in having the passage..Psalm 8 I think - (1) as in Matthew. I checked with the Qumran text and discovered that passage is missing (how inconvenient ) and what has evidently happened was that it had been completed from Matthew not the OT. So the following of the evidence means that Matthew quoted the incorrect Septuagint and Jesus could not have said that. The truth of following the evidence will eventually out, no matter how the religious apologists try to fiddle it.
Did I ever tell you the one about refuting the Quran 'prophecy' about the battle in the Low Place?

Psalm 82 Through the praise of children and infants you have established a stronghold against your enemies, to silence the foe and the avenger.

Matthew 21.16 “Do you hear what these children are saying?” they asked him.

“Yes,” replied Jesus, “have you never read, “‘From the lips of children and infants you, Lord, have called forth your praise’?”

Septuagint, Psalm 8. 2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou perfected praise, because of thine enemies; that thou mightest put down the enemy and avenger.

Qumran text Psalm 8Psalms 8 from Scroll Nahal Hever Psalms

For the Chief Musician; on an instrument of Gath. A Psalm by David.
2 [evidently missing..]
3 When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have ordained;

[Waterfall]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #2]

Namaskaram TRANSPONDER

Is Adam and Eve really a story about the first humans? I have read another take on the story. That it is a story about Satan and his partner. It is a story about how evil was unleash. So there has been a fall. The falling angels. They created the first humans in their fall. With Satan as their leader. Long story...

https://www.toward-the-light.net/

The book can be downloaded here for free in english (scroll down)...

https://vandrer-mod-lyset.dk/e-boeger/#page-content

The book is not like any other book you have read and will give you a lot to think over. But maybe you should read this little book first...

https://www.toward-the-light.net/The%20 ... 0Road.html

The shroud conversation is interesting to follow and I will keep and open mind. But I do not believe in the story about Adam and Eve, so what does the shroud prove if it is real? I already believe that Jesus was crucified and died and his spirit survived. The shroud do not change a whole lot of things for me. It will not make me believe that Jesus died for our sins and all that stuff. I am capable of loving God and so on. To me God is the highest consciousness/intelligence. Let me finish with this (written by Petter Musken on Facebook)...

Why have Jesus' simple love teachings been lost in the Christian religions?

First and foremost because man lives in a world that is darkened by the impermanent. Many people only believe what they see and experience on a daily basis. What really binds us together, the spiritual reality, we learn nothing about, even though this was Jesus' main message; the love of and from God, the love of our fellow men! It is a spiritual reality that we can also experience here in the face of our fellow human beings.
The external worship became more important than the internal. How and when we pray became more important than the meeting itself in a spiritual community. Because we do not need a church building to turn to God, We do not need priests who don't know the truth, but stand and repeat centuries of lies about God who sacrificed his son to save the rest of us from perdition. Those who still believe in these fairy tales that the church's false servants tell about God and the life of Jesus, are deceived and allow themselves to be deceived and are brainwashed to believe that they themselves are not responsible for everything they do! Yes, what father allows one of his children to suffer for what the other children do!
The churches and religions exist to have power over man, not to tell truths about our spiritual reality. But these truths are available to anyone who seeks with an honest desire to understand the context of why man lives in this world of suffering in a physical mortal body.
The church and religions have out played their role for enlightened people who seek the truth outside the domain of fairy tales and superstition.
Jesus' second coming has happened, his speech to humanity is found in the message "Toward the Light!" and everyone who honestly seeks answers to why man lives here on Earth, yes, why earthly life behaves as it does, will find the truth there!
https://vandrer-mod-lyset.dk/e-boeger/#page-content

Your friend forever

Waterfall

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #2]

Namaskaram TRANSPONDER

Is Adam and Eve really a story about the first humans? I have read another take on the story. That it is a story about Satan and his partner. It is a story about how evil was unleash. So there has been a fall. The falling angels. They created the first humans in there fall. With Satan as their leader. Long story...

https://www.toward-the-light.net/

The book can be downloaded here for free in english (scroll down)...

https://vandrer-mod-lyset.dk/e-boeger/#page-content

The book is not like any other book you have read and will give you a lot to think over. But maybe you should read this little book first...

https://www.toward-the-light.net/The%20 ... 0Road.html

The shroud conversation is interesting to follow and I will keep and open mind. But I do not believe in the story about Adam and Eve, so what does the shroud prove if it is real? I already believe that Jesus was crucified and died and his spirit survived. The shroud do not change a whole lot of things for me. It will not make me believe that Jesus died for our sins and all that stuff. I am capable of loving God and so on. To me God is the highest consciousness/intelligence. Let me finish with this (written by Petter Musken on Facebook)...

Why have Jesus' simple love teachings been lost in the Christian religions?

First and foremost because man lives in a world that is darkened by the impermanent. Many people only believe what they see and experience on a daily basis. What really binds us together, the spiritual reality, we learn nothing about, even though this was Jesus' main message; the love of and from God, the love of our fellow men! It is a spiritual reality that we can also experience here in the face of our fellow human beings.
The external worship became more important than the internal. How and when we pray became more important than the meeting itself in a spiritual community. Because we do not need a church building to turn to God, We do not need priests who don't know the truth, but stand and repeat centuries of lies about God who sacrificed his son to save the rest of us from perdition. Those who still believe in these fairy tales that the church's false servants tell about God and the life of Jesus, are deceived and allow themselves to be deceived and are brainwashed to believe that they themselves are not responsible for everything they do! Yes, what father allows one of his children to suffer for what the other children do!
The churches and religions exist to have power over man, not to tell truths about our spiritual reality. But these truths are available to anyone who seeks with an honest desire to understand the context of why man lives in this world of suffering in a physical mortal body.
The church and religions have out played their role for enlightened people who seek the truth outside the domain of fairy tales and superstition.
Jesus' second coming has happened, his speech to humanity is found in the message "Toward the Light!" and everyone who honestly seeks answers to why man lives here on Earth, yes, why earthly life behaves as it does, will find the truth there!
https://vandrer-mod-lyset.dk/e-boeger/#page-content

Your friend forever

Waterfall

I'm the wrong person to ask about Religious creation myths as I don't credit any of them. Cosmic, planetary and biological origins are, in my book, products of unplanned evolutionary processes (chemical, biological and in the end, social) and I see no reason to consider whether Life was made h ,good by a god or bad by fallen angels. As a preference, we do not chuck books or vids at people and advise them to read or watch. Not without some explanation and some convincing reason to spend the time on it. Preferable, the points, polemics and argument are made on the forum is short, easy to understand and digest paragraphs.

The Shroud is simply evidence that I can't totally explain and though it doesn't fit the gospel story exactly, it foxes me if it is not the shroud of a crucified Jew, what on earth is it?

I have to flash my badge and say that I do not do 'spiritual' stuff. I do social ethics, instinct and education, mind and reasoning. 'Religion, spirit and the supernatural has not been validated to me and until it is, I am not about to delve into a book on the subject. Try next door

Have a great weekend and hope it doesn't rain like it's raining here.

[Waterfall]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #4]

Namaskaram TRANSPONDER

Then let us talk about islam Just think about what they are saying. People are going to an eternal hell. How to correct them? If you knew, that your child would end up in an eternal hell, would you then put it into the world? I think it is a good question and I think every muslim should watch these videoes and transform their religion. As you sow, you shall reap. Seek and you shall find. May you also have a great weekend Love, peace and understanding...












Your friend forever

Waterfall

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to Waterfall in post #5]

Indeed. But this is the objection to both the last Abrahamic religions, the problem of Hell. Judaism not having a promise of heaven or hellthreat. So Christianity and Islam are level there. It's just that Islam may have the edge in Historical reliability as regards the founding figure. Though I don't credit the revelation of the Quran in a cave any more than I do the resurrection.

[Waterfall]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #6]

Namaskaram TRANSPONDER

Just this...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell

Judaism does not have a specific doctrine about the afterlife, but it does have a mystical/Orthodox tradition of describing Gehinnom. Gehinnom is not hell, but originally a grave and in later times a sort of Purgatory where one is judged based on one's life's deeds, or rather, where one becomes fully aware of one's own shortcomings and negative actions during one's life. The Kabbalah explains it as a "waiting room" (commonly translated as an "entry way") for all souls (not just the wicked). The overwhelming majority of rabbinic thought maintains that people are not in Gehinnom forever; the longest that one can be there is said to be 12 months, however, there has been the occasional noted exception. Some consider it a spiritual forge where the soul is purified for its eventual ascent to Olam Habah (heb. עולם הבא; lit. "The world to come", often viewed as analogous to heaven). This is also mentioned in the Kabbalah, where the soul is described as breaking, like the flame of a candle lighting another: the part of the soul that ascends being pure and the "unfinished" piece being reborn.

According to Jewish teachings, hell is not entirely physical; rather, it can be compared to a very intense feeling of shame. People are ashamed of their misdeeds and this constitutes suffering which makes up for the bad deeds. When one has so deviated from the will of God, one is said to be in Gehinnom. This is not meant to refer to some point in the future, but to the very present moment. The gates of teshuva (return) are said to be always open, and so one can align his will with that of God at any moment. Being out of alignment with God's will is itself a punishment according to the Torah.

Many scholars of Jewish mysticism, particularly of the Kabbalah, describe seven "compartments" or "habitations" of hell, just as they describe seven divisions of heaven. These divisions go by many different names, and the most frequently mentioned are as follows:

Your friend forever

Waterfall

[TRANSPONDER]

There has always been this elephant in the room. Christianity has the idea of going to heaven, and after one dies, too, and either goes to heaven or hell (that recently some Christians have rejected Hell is a different matter) and also the idea of Jesus returning and the dead resurrecting. Why? They have all been judged already. This is NEVER mentioned in any apologetic I have ever heard.

Judaism as you say does not have people going to heaven much less Hell, and originally did not have a resurrection. That came later on with Pharisee thought where it appears to have come from the Maccabean call to arms in Daniel, assuring that the dead would become like stars in heaven. By the time of Jesus, I gather the idea was that the Messiah (name your own) would come back to establish God's rule on earth, the dead would resurrect and be judged, the worthy living eternally on earth and the other thrown on the fire of Gehennah. The imagery coming from the eternal rubbish dump in the valley of Hinnom, where we can assume the rubbish was burned as much as possible.

Thus we ended up with two conflicting beliefs, one really based on Gentile beliefs about individuals going to an afterlife following Death and perhaps Egyptian teachings about worthy souls going to live with the gods, and the Jewish one about the messiah, Last days and resurrection.

The Kabbalistic ideas may have adopted some ideas about the resurrected soul that sound more Christian, but I have never studied that subject. I might essay a quick Google.

[bjs1]

why did Adam and Eve put children into this world of suffering and death?

I have two kids. They’re amazing. I’m glad they get a chance at life. Yes, life is scary and painful, but it is also wonderful and joyful. Death is a reality, but death is only bad because it is the loss of a good thing – the loss of life. It is better to live and then die than to never live.

If you don’t want kids that’s your prerogative. Don’t project that as some kind moral choice onto other people, not even Adam and Eve.

[Waterfall]

[Replying to bjs1 in post #9]

Namaskaram bjs1

Just for yours and others understanding...

https://isha.sadhguru.org/us/en/wisdom/ ... ar-meaning

In my world there is life after death and reincarnation. That is why I can live with anything that happens to my child. Can you say the same thing? What can you live with? And why? You do not seem to understand the story about Adam and Eve and my questions? Did Adam and Eve have a choice? Why put children into this world of suffering and death? Because God told them to? Why would God do that? What is the story telling us? Paradise is just around the corner? You just have to die first? Why do you not like my deal with Adam and Eve? I do not know what you believe in, so it is hard for me to come up with other questions...

Your friend forever

Waterfall