For Debate: The Bible looks to suggest that God decides who shall become inexorably drawn to him. If this is the case, then it matters not what we do or think, as we are already pre-selected without our own will to do anything to change it. Oh, and BTW, per Romans 9, do not question God's action(s) either. Does this seem like a reasonable and worthy God? I guess the question is irrelevant? Why? If you do or do not deem God reasonable or worthy is irrelevant, as this is already how God decided to make you feel anyways.
Or, is this passage taken completely out of context? If so, please enlighten all of us?
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Reference:
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? -- Romans 9
Who's Choosing Who?
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POI
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Who's Choosing Who?
Post #1In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
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Online1213
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Re: Who's Choosing Who?
Post #51The issue is not did God do it, but how God did that. You seem to think God did that by somehow altering pharaohs freewill and mind, all though Bible doesn't say so.
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Re: Who's Choosing Who?
Post #52The issue is nothing of the kind. The issue is that God 'hardened Pharaoh's heart, and that of his ministers. God did it, Pharaoh didn't, Pharaoh after being put through some plagues (though one can rule out that God was hardening his heart there, too) was going to let the Hebrews go, but God intervened to harden his heart. The passage says so. It is irrelevant how God did it.
Exod.7
[3] And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.
[13] And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.
[14] And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go.
[22] And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said.
(when it says 'Pharaoh's heart was hardened' it was God that had done it)
Exod.9
[7] And Pharaoh sent, and, behold, there was not one of the cattle of the Israelites dead. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go.
[12] And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.
[34] And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.
[35] And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children of Israel go; as the LORD had spoken by Moses.
(again, while it says: " the heart of Pharaoh was hardened", it is clear that it is God doing it.)
Exod.10
[1] And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:
[20] But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.
[27] But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.
Exod.11
[10] And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.
Exod.14
[4] And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. And they did so.
[8] And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with an high hand.
[17] And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.
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POI
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Re: Who's Choosing Who?
Post #53LOL! The Bible does not say 'conditions' either. And yet, you argue the 'conditions' is what hardened his heart. If you go back to the text, God takes full credit for hardening the pharaoh's heart in this case. God did so to achieve God's desired outcome.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
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Re: Who's Choosing Who?
Post #54That's it. At best, demanding to know the method is irrelevant, at worst it is evasive and deceptive. Regretfully, if I had to bet, it would be on the latter.
Double standards, too. How would our Pal react if I said 'I can't accept that the resurrection happened, unless you show me how God did it".On top of which, you show how Abiogenesis could have happened, and still even the possibility is rejected. Because God has to be the only theory on the table. Absolutely, evidence and reason is used in contrary ways, just to serve the interests of BibleFaith, even - as we see from Exodud above, dismissing what the Bible flatly says.
Memorable quote of the day "Ramesses V inscription? Hearsay".
It's really excellent and the 161 browsers (Welcome all
) must see that the demands for Bible text and say - so is merely evasive and crafty because even when the text plainly says so, it is dismissed unless I can explain how God did it.If I were a Christian, I'd be saying 'I may be rooting for the Bible, bit I will never do it like that'. I might have to conclude: "Well, there's no help for it. Genesis just has to be myth from the sun made later than daylight to the tower of Babel. And Exodus, though it might be based on an actual Hebrew migration, must be full of Myth, and I cannot believe that the Good God could behave like that, apart from if he could mind control then, and also override Paul's Free Will to make a convert of him, why on earth didn't he help with anything after that?t'
Cue. "God has His reasons; we much have Faith".
No we mustn't. We were not given brains with the intention we shouldn't use them. Not that the Bible wouldn't prefer that we didn't.
Matthew 11.25. At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
I'll be honest - at times Christianity does upset my stomach.
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Re: Who's Choosing Who?
Post #57Now you are changing the subject. We are not talking about God being evil, but about whether God is able toi alter and control people's minds or override their free Will (as with Pharaoh and indeed Paul, it seems) and the Bible says that is what God did and you don't get to deny what your own Bible says, nor raise irrelevant questions like how God did it. Do you deny the resurrection happened because you can't say how God did it?
The double standards, position shifting and ad hoc quibbles of Bible apologists is really quite amazing.
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POI
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Re: Who's Choosing Who?
Post #58Still circling.... Aside from posts 42, 45, 48, and 53, I will continue to remain patient against your blatant denial of this simple fact. (i.e.):
Exodus 9-12 -->"the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart" = mind control.
Add onto the above the passage in Romans 9, as I laid out in the original post; and you have recipe for God verifying that he does indeed dabble in mind control (i.e.):
Romans 9-18 --> "he hardens whom he wants to harden." = mind control
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
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TRANSPONDER
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Re: Who's Choosing Who?
Post #60But it does say - plainly - that God said he was going to harden Pharaoh's heart, and he did it. The text even implied that it was God doing even when it say 'Pharaoh hardened his heart'. It also implies that you neither know nor care what the Bible says if you would prefer that it says something else.
It isn't just you.
In all the pages of posting, hours of preaching do we ever see this stiff? Not, until Bible skeptics raise it, we never hear it. It's plain black and white - God did this. But when did any of these Preachers, these Bible experts, these Christian apologists, mention it?
