Why Did God Create Atheists?

[Miles]

.

There is a famous story told in Chassidic literature that addresses this very question. The Master teaches the student that God created everything in the world to be appreciated, since everything is here to teach us a lesson.

One clever student asks “What lesson can we learn from atheists? Why did God create them?”

The Master responds “God created atheists to teach us the most important lesson of them all — the lesson of true compassion. You see, when an atheist performs an act of charity, visits someone who is sick, helps someone in need, and cares for the world, he is not doing so because of some religious teaching. He does not believe that God commanded him to perform this act. In fact, he does not believe in God at all, so his acts are based on an inner sense of morality. And look at the kindness he can bestow upon others simply because he feels it to be right.”

“This means,” the Master continued “that when someone reaches out to you for help, you should never say ‘I pray that God will help you.’ Instead for the moment, you should become an atheist, imagine that there is no God who can help, and say ‘I will help you.’”

—Martin Buber, Tales of Hasidim Vol. 2 (1991)

So, reasonable or not. We atheists exist to set an example to the morally stunted of the world?


.

[boatsnguitars]

When did he say this? From his own lips? Not from someone else's pen?

So To learn anything from anyone else’s lips, your own ears must have had the possibility of hearing those spoken words. If you require that your own ears hear spoken words from any knowledge source or you refuse their knowledge, how did you learn anything at all? Can we assume you NEVER EVER learn from books but only speakers? That seems to be your standard. Our interaction is doomed because WRITTEN words are our only medium here.

Also, maybe he can't - maybe he's not powerful enough to control people?

Maybe He’s too morally good to control people. Have you considered this possibility?

Because He repeatedly tells us to choose right over wrong. He punishes us for our choices. He rewards us for our choices. He’s obviously given the ability to choose to man. He never ever says that He is choosing for us, end of story.

He never says anything, though. You seem to be taking his silence for a reason. Why, it's almost as if he doesn't exist and you are making excuses for him.

You are likely confusing the lack of experiencing Him speaking to you for Him not speaking at all. He speaks to many people and constantly, but some do not hear. Some do not want to hear, some no longer can hear. Some expect his voice to be different than it is. But in any case, millions will testify that he speaks and a lot.

How is my view that God isn’t micromanaging all human activity “speaking for God” and your position of insisting God is micromanaging all human activity NOT “speaking for God?” You haven’t a shred of proof God is managing all human choices.

Because you don't actually know what God thinks. I don't think God exists, so - of course - he isn't managing anything.

Of course I know what God thinks, same as I know what you think …that is, on matters which you have explained what you think. I know, for example, you think there is no God. So I know what you think. Same way I know what God thinks on matters He has explained. It is not rocket science.

You appear to be not only assuming God exists, but what his thoughts are.

I do not assume this any more than I assume you do not think God is there at all. This is not difficult.

You seem to be telling God what to do. God says in the Bible says “choose whom you will serve.” He isn’t talking to Himself.

The Bible says a lot of things. Other Holy Books say other things.
You, and those books, are speaking for God. That's not God talking.
A biography is not an autobiography.

You have a standard that merely prevents you from learning truth. You insist that only verbal communication is to be trusted so that eliminates all books.

To clarify, the bible is not our *holy* book. We do not have a holy book or holy man in that sense. We do not kill you if you step on it or tear it up like the muslims regarding the Koran. And, btw, have you read other written {not oral so beware} material from religions? The Bible is useful to teach us to be holy, that is, to do right by others. That is what holy means to us. This is not true of the Koran or Hindu writings.

Do you have a saying from God telling us that He is choosing for us whom we will serve?

No, but I am aware of Theological Determinism:

Theological Determinism
Theological determinism is the view that God determines every event that occurs in the history of the world. While there is much debate about which prominent historical figures were theological determinists, St. Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, John Calvin, and Gottfried Leibniz all seemed to espouse the view at least at certain points in their illustrious careers. Contemporary theological determinists also appeal to various biblical texts (for example Ephesians 1:11) and confessional creeds (for example the Westminster Confession of Faith) to support their view. While such arguments from authority carry significant weight within the traditions in which they are offered, another form of argument for theological determinism which has broader appeal draws on perfect being theology, or a kind of systematic thinking through the implications of the claim that God is—in the words of St. Anselm—quo maius cogitari non potest: that than which none greater can be conceived. The article below considers three such perfect being arguments for theological determinism, having to do with God’s knowledge of the future, providential governance of creation, and absolute independence. Implications of theological determinism for human freedom and divine responsibility are then discussed.

OK, so God never said anything such thing about Himself, orally or written.

HOw do you know that's not the only thing God ever inspired to be written about him?

[William]

[Replying to Miles in post #1]

Why Did God Create Atheists?

According to atheists, God does not exist to create anything, theists or atheists or any other type of human belief system of positioning.

Atheism itself is created and maintained as a position by those who feel they have good reason to reject theistic claims.

Since the only thing which defines atheism is a lack of belief in gods of any sort, even that there are atheists (and theists and others) who are morally helpful atheists do not exist to set an example to the "morally stunted" of the world, because;
1. This implies a creed and atheism has no creed.
2. Not all atheists are "morally grown".

[Mae von H]

When did he say this? From his own lips? Not from someone else's pen?

So To learn anything from anyone else’s lips, your own ears must have had the possibility of hearing those spoken words. If you require that your own ears hear spoken words from any knowledge source or you refuse their knowledge, how did you learn anything at all? Can we assume you NEVER EVER learn from books but only speakers? That seems to be your standard. Our interaction is doomed because WRITTEN words are our only medium here.

Also, maybe he can't - maybe he's not powerful enough to control people?

Maybe He’s too morally good to control people. Have you considered this possibility?

Because He repeatedly tells us to choose right over wrong. He punishes us for our choices. He rewards us for our choices. He’s obviously given the ability to choose to man. He never ever says that He is choosing for us, end of story.

He never says anything, though. You seem to be taking his silence for a reason. Why, it's almost as if he doesn't exist and you are making excuses for him.

You are likely confusing the lack of experiencing Him speaking to you for Him not speaking at all. He speaks to many people and constantly, but some do not hear. Some do not want to hear, some no longer can hear. Some expect his voice to be different than it is. But in any case, millions will testify that he speaks and a lot.

How is my view that God isn’t micromanaging all human activity “speaking for God” and your position of insisting God is micromanaging all human activity NOT “speaking for God?” You haven’t a shred of proof God is managing all human choices.

Because you don't actually know what God thinks. I don't think God exists, so - of course - he isn't managing anything.

Of course I know what God thinks, same as I know what you think …that is, on matters which you have explained what you think. I know, for example, you think there is no God. So I know what you think. Same way I know what God thinks on matters He has explained. It is not rocket science.

You appear to be not only assuming God exists, but what his thoughts are.

I do not assume this any more than I assume you do not think God is there at all. This is not difficult.

You seem to be telling God what to do. God says in the Bible says “choose whom you will serve.” He isn’t talking to Himself.

The Bible says a lot of things. Other Holy Books say other things.
You, and those books, are speaking for God. That's not God talking.
A biography is not an autobiography.

You have a standard that merely prevents you from learning truth. You insist that only verbal communication is to be trusted so that eliminates all books.

To clarify, the bible is not our *holy* book. We do not have a holy book or holy man in that sense. We do not kill you if you step on it or tear it up like the muslims regarding the Koran. And, btw, have you read other written {not oral so beware} material from religions? The Bible is useful to teach us to be holy, that is, to do right by others. That is what holy means to us. This is not true of the Koran or Hindu writings.

Do you have a saying from God telling us that He is choosing for us whom we will serve?

No, but I am aware of Theological Determinism:

Theological Determinism
Theological determinism is the view that God determines every event that occurs in the history of the world. While there is much debate about which prominent historical figures were theological determinists, St. Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, John Calvin, and Gottfried Leibniz all seemed to espouse the view at least at certain points in their illustrious careers. Contemporary theological determinists also appeal to various biblical texts (for example Ephesians 1:11) and confessional creeds (for example the Westminster Confession of Faith) to support their view. While such arguments from authority carry significant weight within the traditions in which they are offered, another form of argument for theological determinism which has broader appeal draws on perfect being theology, or a kind of systematic thinking through the implications of the claim that God is—in the words of St. Anselm—quo maius cogitari non potest: that than which none greater can be conceived. The article below considers three such perfect being arguments for theological determinism, having to do with God’s knowledge of the future, providential governance of creation, and absolute independence. Implications of theological determinism for human freedom and divine responsibility are then discussed.

OK, so God never said anything such thing about Himself, orally or written.

HOw do you know that's not the only thing God ever inspired to be written about him?

Extremely intelligent question. I am very sure it is not the only work God inspired, but how does this help our discussion? God has not ceased talking to men and through men to other men {by men I mean humans, not males in particular.} Some of those communications are written.

[boatsnguitars]

When did he say this? From his own lips? Not from someone else's pen?

So To learn anything from anyone else’s lips, your own ears must have had the possibility of hearing those spoken words. If you require that your own ears hear spoken words from any knowledge source or you refuse their knowledge, how did you learn anything at all? Can we assume you NEVER EVER learn from books but only speakers? That seems to be your standard. Our interaction is doomed because WRITTEN words are our only medium here.

Also, maybe he can't - maybe he's not powerful enough to control people?

Maybe He’s too morally good to control people. Have you considered this possibility?

Because He repeatedly tells us to choose right over wrong. He punishes us for our choices. He rewards us for our choices. He’s obviously given the ability to choose to man. He never ever says that He is choosing for us, end of story.

He never says anything, though. You seem to be taking his silence for a reason. Why, it's almost as if he doesn't exist and you are making excuses for him.

You are likely confusing the lack of experiencing Him speaking to you for Him not speaking at all. He speaks to many people and constantly, but some do not hear. Some do not want to hear, some no longer can hear. Some expect his voice to be different than it is. But in any case, millions will testify that he speaks and a lot.

How is my view that God isn’t micromanaging all human activity “speaking for God” and your position of insisting God is micromanaging all human activity NOT “speaking for God?” You haven’t a shred of proof God is managing all human choices.

Because you don't actually know what God thinks. I don't think God exists, so - of course - he isn't managing anything.

Of course I know what God thinks, same as I know what you think …that is, on matters which you have explained what you think. I know, for example, you think there is no God. So I know what you think. Same way I know what God thinks on matters He has explained. It is not rocket science.

You appear to be not only assuming God exists, but what his thoughts are.

I do not assume this any more than I assume you do not think God is there at all. This is not difficult.

You seem to be telling God what to do. God says in the Bible says “choose whom you will serve.” He isn’t talking to Himself.

The Bible says a lot of things. Other Holy Books say other things.
You, and those books, are speaking for God. That's not God talking.
A biography is not an autobiography.

You have a standard that merely prevents you from learning truth. You insist that only verbal communication is to be trusted so that eliminates all books.

To clarify, the bible is not our *holy* book. We do not have a holy book or holy man in that sense. We do not kill you if you step on it or tear it up like the muslims regarding the Koran. And, btw, have you read other written {not oral so beware} material from religions? The Bible is useful to teach us to be holy, that is, to do right by others. That is what holy means to us. This is not true of the Koran or Hindu writings.

Do you have a saying from God telling us that He is choosing for us whom we will serve?

No, but I am aware of Theological Determinism:

Theological Determinism
Theological determinism is the view that God determines every event that occurs in the history of the world. While there is much debate about which prominent historical figures were theological determinists, St. Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, John Calvin, and Gottfried Leibniz all seemed to espouse the view at least at certain points in their illustrious careers. Contemporary theological determinists also appeal to various biblical texts (for example Ephesians 1:11) and confessional creeds (for example the Westminster Confession of Faith) to support their view. While such arguments from authority carry significant weight within the traditions in which they are offered, another form of argument for theological determinism which has broader appeal draws on perfect being theology, or a kind of systematic thinking through the implications of the claim that God is—in the words of St. Anselm—quo maius cogitari non potest: that than which none greater can be conceived. The article below considers three such perfect being arguments for theological determinism, having to do with God’s knowledge of the future, providential governance of creation, and absolute independence. Implications of theological determinism for human freedom and divine responsibility are then discussed.

OK, so God never said anything such thing about Himself, orally or written.

How do you know that's not the only thing God ever inspired to be written about him?

Extremely intelligent question. I am very sure it is not the only work God inspired, but how does this help our discussion? God has not ceased talking to men and through men to other men {by men I mean humans, not males in particular.} Some of those communications are written.

OK, then how do you know what I just posted about Theological Determinism wasn't inspired by God? Maybe it's the single thing ever inspired by God? (Despite you thinking God inspires all kinds of things)

Let's face it, you can't know. You don't know God exists, so you are tangentially wrong if you think he even inspired one thing.

Feel free to answer these questions in depth...


Note: If you mean 'humans", traditionally you would capitalize the "M," (i.e., Men), otherwise, you mean men (not women). However, since this is obviously sexist, many prefer to use other terms. Yet, when referencing archaic prose, one often reverts to the usage of the day, especially when quoting authors. As this is a Classics-based website, we expect most people here to be either older, or well-versed in the older usages of words and it is generally passed over as an anachronism. One would want to code-shift if they were to be speaking to a wider audience, especially a more enlightened group.
That said, your reference to 'god speaking to men', if uncorrected, would be aggressively sexist due the fact that God (allegedly) speaks to women more than men.
https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/20 ... r-god.html

[Mae von H]

When did he say this? From his own lips? Not from someone else's pen?

So To learn anything from anyone else’s lips, your own ears must have had the possibility of hearing those spoken words. If you require that your own ears hear spoken words from any knowledge source or you refuse their knowledge, how did you learn anything at all? Can we assume you NEVER EVER learn from books but only speakers? That seems to be your standard. Our interaction is doomed because WRITTEN words are our only medium here.

Also, maybe he can't - maybe he's not powerful enough to control people?

Maybe He’s too morally good to control people. Have you considered this possibility?

Because He repeatedly tells us to choose right over wrong. He punishes us for our choices. He rewards us for our choices. He’s obviously given the ability to choose to man. He never ever says that He is choosing for us, end of story.

He never says anything, though. You seem to be taking his silence for a reason. Why, it's almost as if he doesn't exist and you are making excuses for him.

You are likely confusing the lack of experiencing Him speaking to you for Him not speaking at all. He speaks to many people and constantly, but some do not hear. Some do not want to hear, some no longer can hear. Some expect his voice to be different than it is. But in any case, millions will testify that he speaks and a lot.

How is my view that God isn’t micromanaging all human activity “speaking for God” and your position of insisting God is micromanaging all human activity NOT “speaking for God?” You haven’t a shred of proof God is managing all human choices.

Because you don't actually know what God thinks. I don't think God exists, so - of course - he isn't managing anything.

Of course I know what God thinks, same as I know what you think …that is, on matters which you have explained what you think. I know, for example, you think there is no God. So I know what you think. Same way I know what God thinks on matters He has explained. It is not rocket science.

You appear to be not only assuming God exists, but what his thoughts are.

I do not assume this any more than I assume you do not think God is there at all. This is not difficult.

You seem to be telling God what to do. God says in the Bible says “choose whom you will serve.” He isn’t talking to Himself.

The Bible says a lot of things. Other Holy Books say other things.
You, and those books, are speaking for God. That's not God talking.
A biography is not an autobiography.

You have a standard that merely prevents you from learning truth. You insist that only verbal communication is to be trusted so that eliminates all books.

To clarify, the bible is not our *holy* book. We do not have a holy book or holy man in that sense. We do not kill you if you step on it or tear it up like the muslims regarding the Koran. And, btw, have you read other written {not oral so beware} material from religions? The Bible is useful to teach us to be holy, that is, to do right by others. That is what holy means to us. This is not true of the Koran or Hindu writings.

Do you have a saying from God telling us that He is choosing for us whom we will serve?

No, but I am aware of Theological Determinism:

Theological Determinism
Theological determinism is the view that God determines every event that occurs in the history of the world. While there is much debate about which prominent historical figures were theological determinists, St. Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, John Calvin, and Gottfried Leibniz all seemed to espouse the view at least at certain points in their illustrious careers. Contemporary theological determinists also appeal to various biblical texts (for example Ephesians 1:11) and confessional creeds (for example the Westminster Confession of Faith) to support their view. While such arguments from authority carry significant weight within the traditions in which they are offered, another form of argument for theological determinism which has broader appeal draws on perfect being theology, or a kind of systematic thinking through the implications of the claim that God is—in the words of St. Anselm—quo maius cogitari non potest: that than which none greater can be conceived. The article below considers three such perfect being arguments for theological determinism, having to do with God’s knowledge of the future, providential governance of creation, and absolute independence. Implications of theological determinism for human freedom and divine responsibility are then discussed.

OK, so God never said anything such thing about Himself, orally or written.

How do you know that's not the only thing God ever inspired to be written about him?

Extremely intelligent question. I am very sure it is not the only work God inspired, but how does this help our discussion? God has not ceased talking to men and through men to other men {by men I mean humans, not males in particular.} Some of those communications are written.

OK, then how do you know what I just posted about Theological Determinism wasn't inspired by God?

Because I’m thoroughly familiar with what He’s already said. And the position describes an extremely evil being worse than the Devil. That’s not Him.

Maybe it's the single thing ever inspired by God?

Not a word is inspired.

(Despite you thinking God inspires all kinds of things)

Never said any such thing. I said “other” not “all kinds.”

Let's face it, you can't know. You don't know God exists, so you are tangentially wrong if you think he even inspired one thing.

How I know (and I do) is outside your area of experience.

Feel free to answer these questions in depth...


Note: If you mean 'humans", traditionally you would capitalize the "M," (i.e., Men), otherwise, you mean men (not women).

No, it’s not a proper noun. I’ve read quite a bit and that was never the case. An example:

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator”

However, since this is obviously sexist, many prefer to use other terms.

Untrue. People have become literature ignorant.

Yet, when referencing archaic prose, one often reverts to the usage of the day, especially when quoting authors. As this is a Classics-based website, we expect most people here to be either older, or well-versed in the older usages of words and it is generally passed over as an anachronism. One would want to code-shift if they were to be speaking to a wider audience, especially a more enlightened group.

I would substitute “uneducated.”

That said, your reference to 'god speaking to men', if uncorrected, would be aggressively sexist due the fact that God (allegedly) speaks to women more than men.
https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/20 ... r-god.html

Again, the younger ignorant members do not understand the usage down through the centuries. They are trained to read “sexist” everywhere. English is a much poorer language as a result. Many words are now FORBIDDEN!!

[boatsnguitars]

Because I’m thoroughly familiar with what He’s already said. And the position describes an extremely evil being worse than the Devil. That’s not Him.

OK, let's end this here. I can't tell if you are a Poe and yanking my chain, or serious. Either way, my time is more valuable to deal with either.

For the record, I don't believe you know what God intends, I don't think you know what God has expressed. I also don't believe God exists, but even if it did exist, I don't believe you are the one to tell me what it thinks. I don't know why you'd feel comfortable claiming you can tell others what God thinks, either.

[William]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #24]

Then how do you know what I just posted about Theological Determinism wasn't inspired by God?

How do you that it wasn't?

[boatsnguitars]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #24]

Then how do you know what I just posted about Theological Determinism wasn't inspired by God?

How do you that it wasn't?

I don't, but given there is no evidence for a God, I don't need to worry much about it. Show me God exists, then I could put some energy into the issue.

[William]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #24]

Then how do you know what I just posted about Theological Determinism wasn't inspired by God?

How do you know that it wasn't?

I don't, but given there is no evidence for a God, I don't need to worry much about it. Show me God exists, then I could put some energy into the issue.

So the question asked by an atheist (Why Did God Create Atheists?) is not something an atheist would wonder about?

[boatsnguitars]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #24]

Then how do you know what I just posted about Theological Determinism wasn't inspired by God?

How do you know that it wasn't?

I don't, but given there is no evidence for a God, I don't need to worry much about it. Show me God exists, then I could put some energy into the issue.

So the question asked by an atheist (Why Did God Create Atheists?) is not something an atheist would wonder about?

Wonder is different from worry.