The time when civilizations appeared

[Eloi]

Evolutionists agree with the Bible on a few things. For example, the oldest known civilization was the Sumerian, and the dating of everything associated with it does not exceed the fifth millennium BC.

From the Bible, which is a collection of records written in the first moment back to 1514 BC, one can make a sufficiently detailed human chronology to understand that Moses knew that the civilizations before him only went as far back as the same date as modern scholars likewise acknowledge, near 2.5 millennia before him.

How did Moses know that human civilization had begun at that time and in the same place where the modern science places it, if he had no way of measuring time before him by more than two thousand years? Did he have carbon clocks to measure ancient objects? Or did Moses really know the history of the origin of man and the original human civilization?

There are other questions about the first ancient civilization that I will analyze in this topic, such as: if evolutionists believe that the knowledge necessary for the appearance of a civilization is such a slow process, is it reasonable to believe that a first civilization would suddenly appear with everything that the Sumerian civilization had?

I suppose those who don't know first have to understand the real scope of the Sumerians as civilized human beings, so that they can then reason about how long it took them from a supposed archaic man in the style of evolutionary fiction, to men with advanced mathematics, knowledge of the skies, knowledge to transform the terrain, architecture knowledge, language and writing, literature with a high artistic level, ..., even schools for children.

Having started the subject... you already have to reason about the truth of the origin of civilized man: were they apes before the Sumerians? were they learning little by little before they suddenly built an empire like the Sumerian?

PS: We know about the Sumerian civilization from the writings of its time that have come down to us, and the testimony of people who lived long after that civilization ceased to exist, but who had evidence of its past.

[Eloi]

Scientists have not found an ancient text saying that the Sumerians called each other "Sumerians"; is a modern name for a civilization located in Mesopotamia, like the one the Bible talks about:

Gen. 4:16 Then Cain went away from before Jehovah and took up residence in the land of Exile, to the east of Eʹden.
17 Afterward Cain had sexual relations with his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Eʹnoch. Then he engaged in building a city and named the city after his son Eʹnoch. 18 Later Iʹrad was born to Eʹnoch. And Iʹrad became father to Me·huʹja·el, and Me·huʹja·el became father to Me·thuʹsha·el, and Me·thuʹsha·el became father to Laʹmech.
19 Laʹmech took two wives for himself. The name of the first was Aʹdah, and the name of the second was Zilʹlah. 20 Aʹdah gave birth to Jaʹbal. He was the founder of those who dwell in tents and have livestock. 21 His brother’s name was Juʹbal. He was the founder of all those who play the harp and the pipe. 22 Also, Zilʹlah gave birth to Tuʹbal-cain, who forged every sort of tool of copper and iron. And the sister of Tuʹbal-cain was Naʹa·mah.

What kind of stupidity is this to require a believer to find the name "Sumerians" in the Bible

You're the one who brought up the Bible in conjunction with Sumerian civilization.

"Evolutionists agree with the Bible on a few things. For example, the oldest known civilization was the Sumerian, and the dating of everything associated with it does not exceed the fifth millennium BC."

How can evolutionists agree with the Bible that "the oldest known civilization was the Sumerian" if the Bible never mentions it? They can't. Yet, by virtue of your own words, the Bible must have mentioned it. That you have since found it does not isn't anyone else's mistake but your own. . C'mon Eloi, get in step, please.

.

"Sumerians" because of dating and location, obviously.

Not talking about "Sumerians," (a specific group of people) but the "Sumerian civilization." (Civilization: a complex society characterized by the development of the state, social stratification, urbanization, and symbolic systems of communication beyond natural spoken language.)


So, what are the Bible verses that give the dating and location of the Sumerian civilization? Book(s), chapter(s), and verse(s) will do.

.

As you can see in the cited passages, as soon as one of Adam's sons was exiled from the place where his parents were, cities began to be built, different trades arose, musical instruments were created, and metals began to be worked... No it is that backward apes or advanced apes gradually learned to do these things until they integrated into an organized and "civilized" social system.

A Biblical chronology can be worked out step by step to get to the year 4025/6 B.C. as the year of Adam's creation. The genealogy that Moses describes in various passages of his writing would have allowed him to easily realize that Adam had been created about 25 centuries before his birth, as he recorded by inspiration and about 3,500 years after Moses we can still read it. .. without the need for evolutionists to tell us that the first human civilization settled in that same place and time.

Studies of ancient documents and archeological discoveries show that 6 millennia ago there were already well-developed arts and letters and sciences in Sumer... they even domesticated animals, as the Bible shows.

[Eloi]

For example: Sumerians got a sexagesimal numeric system; based on 60 (like the minutes and seconds) instead of 10.

Now tell me: do you seriously believe that this mathematical numeric system, instead of the modern system of 10 (easier because of the fingers of the hands ), is a knowledge that can be obtained without an intelligent organization that can support mathematical calculations and investigations that in no way could an ape perform before? Only humans who were always intelligent can carry out studies and reach that advanced knowledge that the Sumerians already had when they emerged as a civilization. Imagine: They even had schools to educate children, and their account notebooks have been unearthed!!!! Notebooks with multiplication and division exercises!!!!!

Evolutionists say that this was a first civilization, but that thousands and thousands of years before it arose there were already intelligent humans WHO HAD NEVER joined in a civilized society... Even monkeys live in society!!!! LOL. But maths with the sexagesimal system never were studied in society, according to them, since there were not civilizations ... They are telling you to believe that some independent avanzed apes at the time, were studing maths by themselves, not at school, no, just by themselves in caves, maybe?

Don't you realize that something is not adding up with the evolutionist theory?
And this is only one example.

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to Eloi in post #12]

Evolutionists say that this was a first civilization, but that thousands and thousands of years before it arose there were already intelligent humans WHO HAD NEVER joined in a civilized society.

The people who study humans civilizations are called anthropoligists, not evolutionists. It is anthropoligists who have shown that there were intelligent humans roaming many parts of the Earth long before they learned how to domesticate plants and animals (this is called the Neolithic period, which predates your biblical 6000 year time frame by thousands of years) which were necessary prerequisites for building civilizations. Google the word anthropology to learn what that scientific discipline is, and why it has nothing to do with being an "evolutionist."

Here's an easy to read link to get you started:

https://education.nationalgeographic.or ... hropology/

[Miles]

Scientists have not found an ancient text saying that the Sumerians called each other "Sumerians"; is a modern name for a civilization located in Mesopotamia, like the one the Bible talks about:

Gen. 4:16 Then Cain went away from before Jehovah and took up residence in the land of Exile, to the east of Eʹden.
17 Afterward Cain had sexual relations with his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Eʹnoch. Then he engaged in building a city and named the city after his son Eʹnoch. 18 Later Iʹrad was born to Eʹnoch. And Iʹrad became father to Me·huʹja·el, and Me·huʹja·el became father to Me·thuʹsha·el, and Me·thuʹsha·el became father to Laʹmech.
19 Laʹmech took two wives for himself. The name of the first was Aʹdah, and the name of the second was Zilʹlah. 20 Aʹdah gave birth to Jaʹbal. He was the founder of those who dwell in tents and have livestock. 21 His brother’s name was Juʹbal. He was the founder of all those who play the harp and the pipe. 22 Also, Zilʹlah gave birth to Tuʹbal-cain, who forged every sort of tool of copper and iron. And the sister of Tuʹbal-cain was Naʹa·mah.

What kind of stupidity is this to require a believer to find the name "Sumerians" in the Bible

You're the one who brought up the Bible in conjunction with Sumerian civilization.

"Evolutionists agree with the Bible on a few things. For example, the oldest known civilization was the Sumerian, and the dating of everything associated with it does not exceed the fifth millennium BC."

How can evolutionists agree with the Bible that "the oldest known civilization was the Sumerian" if the Bible never mentions it? They can't. Yet, by virtue of your own words, the Bible must have mentioned it. That you have since found it does not isn't anyone else's mistake but your own. . C'mon Eloi, get in step, please.

.

"Sumerians" because of dating and location, obviously.

Not talking about "Sumerians," (a specific group of people) but the "Sumerian civilization." (Civilization: a complex society characterized by the development of the state, social stratification, urbanization, and symbolic systems of communication beyond natural spoken language.)


So, what are the Bible verses that give the dating and location of the Sumerian civilization? Book(s), chapter(s), and verse(s) will do.

.

As you can see in the cited passages, as soon as one of Adam's sons was exiled from the place where his parents were, cities began to be built, different trades arose, musical instruments were created, and metals began to be worked... No it is that backward apes or advanced apes gradually learned to do these things until they integrated into an organized and "civilized" social system.

What cited passages? I asked for "Book(s), chapter(s), and verse(s)" and all you've presented are more claims sans any Book(s), chapter(s), and verse(s).

A Biblical chronology can be worked out step by step to get to the year 4025/6 B.C. as the year of Adam's creation.

Which can be worked out to other dates as well. Such as:

Between 7,677 BC and 7,777 BC

Putting all this together, between 9,800 (7,677 BC) and 9,700 (7,777 BC) years ago is an accurate date of creation for Adam and Eve.
source: Social Research Network

_____________________

101,000 BC to 200,000 BC (Not a Biblical chronology, just interesting)

"The latest genetic dates for mitochondrial Eve range from 107,000 to 197,000 years ago."
he latest genetic dates for Y-chromosomal Adam range from 101,000 to 200,000 years ago.
source

_____________________

4004 BC

Although there is no Biblical proof of the exact year that Adam and Eve lived, Ussher, Archbishop of Ireland (1581-1656), suggests that they lived in 4004 BC.
source

___________________

Roughly 3,977 BC to 7,997 BC

In a common traditional view, Adam and Eve were created de novo—they were created by God as fully formed humans (Homo sapiens), roughly 6,000 (3,977 BC) to 10,000 (7,997 BC )years ago.
source

_____________________

About 3,977 BC

God created humankind completely separate from lower forms of life like apes, and started with just two individuals known biblically as Adam and Eve about 6,000 years ago.(about 3,977 BC)

AND

Between 7,777 BC and 7,667 BC

When was Adam and Eve born?
Putting all this together, between 9,800 ( 7,777 BC) and 9,700 (7,667 BC) years ago is an accurate date of creation for Adam and Eve.
Source: Oops!
___________________

4026 B.C.E.,

Jehovah Witnesses organization

When were Adam and Eve created?
4 .According to reliable Bible chronology Adam was created in the year 4026 B.C.E.,
source

___________________

4004 BC-3074 BC

Adam (4004 BC-3074 BC)
source

____________________

So neither 4026 B.C.E nor 4025/6 B.C. need be taken seriously, unless, that is, there are consequences --- *OUCH!* --- for not accepting these dates as fact, which some religions like to impose on their more intelligent parishioners.


.

[Eloi]

... there were intelligent humans roaming many parts of the Earth long before they learned how to domesticate plants and animals (this is called the Neolithic period, which predates your biblical 6000 year time frame by thousands of years) which were necessary prerequisites for building civilizations. ...

Interesting phrase: "necessary prerequisites for building civilizations"

Evolutionists find it incredible and impossible that humans were intelligent since they were created some 6 millennia ago, so they are driven to INVENT a history before the first human civilization, when "uncivilized" humans were preparing those conditions that they demand for the conception of history that is acceptable to them. So they have to date anything to tens of thousands and millions of years, to fit the conditions they demand: a little piece of stone that looks like an arrowhead, a piece of baked clay that looks like a doll, a mark on a cave wall, it doesn't matter what it is... something that looks like it was made by an uncivilized smart human (whatever that is in their biased mind) that can be dated back tens of thousands of years or earlier.

So it has to be like this, or it's simply impossible. They have to invent that someone before the Sumerians invented a sexagesimal numeric system, another was putting together an astronomy manual, another invented pedagogy rules to teach students in a school, another discovered how animals were domesticated, etc etc etc etc ... and suddenly, 6 millennia ago, everything was ready to put together the first civilization ... How much faith!

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to Eloi in post #15]

Interesting phrase: "necessary prerequisites for building civilizations"

Why so? Would you expect thousands of people to be able to live in one city without the ability to produce enough food for them all? When humans were hunter-gatherers, which represented roughly the first 95% of the time since Homo sapiens first appeared some 300,000 years ago, they lived in much smaller groups of some 50-100 people and the dynamics of how they lived was suited for small groups like that. Here's a couple of very simple articles on some of the time frames involved for the Neolithic period ... all dating well before 6000 years ago:

https://education.nationalgeographic.or ... riculture/

https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sc ... -look-like

Evolutionists find it incredible and impossible that humans were intelligent since they were created some 6 millennia ago, so they are driven to INVENT a history before the first human civilization, when "uncivilized" humans were preparing those conditions that they demand for the conception of history that is acceptable to them. So they have to date anything to tens of thousands and millions of years, to fit the conditions they demand: a little piece of stone that looks like an arrowhead, a piece of baked clay that looks like a doll, a mark on a cave wall, it doesn't matter what it is... something that looks like it was made by an uncivilized smart human (whatever that is in their biased mind) that can be dated back tens of thousands of years or earlier.

Again, it is not "evolutionists" who do these kind of studies, it is mostly anthropoligists. Not eveyone who disagrees with the bible myths and stories is an "evolutionist." But the dating of artifacts is a well developed process that doesn't rely on opinions or preconceived dates that are made to match some existing narrative (that would be the religious approach). Radiometric dating, among other techniques, produces date range estimates that are absolute dates based on radioactive decay rates of atoms, independent of whether that atom is in an arrowhead, a bone, a piece of paper, a plant, or anything else. The dates aren't "invented."

So it has to be like this, or it's simply impossible. They have to invent that someone before the Sumerians invented a sexagesimal numeric system, another was putting together an astronomy manual, another invented pedagogy rules to teach students in a school, another discovered how animals were domesticated, etc etc etc etc ... and suddenly, 6 millennia ago, everything was ready to put together the first civilization ... How much faith!

This is not at all how it works, and just demonstrates once again that you haven't bothered to study these subjects that you constantly bash with personal opinion posts backed up by nothing else. Humans evolved over time, their capabilities and knowledge evolved over time, etc. Why didn't the Sumerians have computers or vaccines, or build skyscrapers from steel, or land men on the moon? If they were suddenly "created" with intelligence levels of humans today which did it take over 5500 years before humans could print a page of text or build a telescope? Can't you see why your argument that humans were suddenly "created" 6000 years ago is so utterly ridiculous?

[Eloi]

... This is not at all how it works ...

You seem to think you're the one to tell me how things work.
No, it's not you.

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to Eloi in post #17]

You seem to think you're the one to tell me how things work.

I've said nothing in any of these threads that isn't common knowledge that can be confirmed from hundreds if not thousands of external sources and resources that have nothing to do with me, and that I didn't write or influence. It is your refusal to educate yourself on what science has accomplished over the last couple of millennia that is the problem. You're offering nothing but personal opinions based on religious beliefs, and have yet to back up a single one of them beyond quoting a bible verse here and there. Bible verses do not count as support for any claim in this section of the forum.

If you want to know how things work ... reading something besides 2000+ year old holy books would go a long way towards that goal. Or you can keep your head in the sand and ignore the last 2000+ years of science advancements that prove your arguments and claims here are dead wrong.

[Eloi]

I quoted you. It is something you repeat a lot.
If you are/were a teacher any time, you forgot that not everyone is your student.

I got my own criteria and I consider myself a rational thinker.
Present facts. I can consider what they may mean BY MYSELF.

Again, so you can understand it clearly: you are not the one to tell me how things work.

PS: The dating methods are not infallible, and since atheists do not believe there was a Deluge, they do not consider all aspects that may affect their dating. So atheists are never going to be the ones to tell me how to think or what to believe. Did you understand now?

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to Eloi in post #19]

Again, so you can understand it clearly: you are not the one to tell me how things work.

Why do you think I'm trying to tell you "how things work"? I'm simply relaying common science conclusions which are not simply my personal opinion, but the results of centuries of observations and R&D by many tens of thousands of people. You can read about these results anywhere without anyone telling you "how things work." The internet is a very useful resource for this information as you don't even need to leave your chair. Go read it for yourself. If you don't like what science has discovered then don't blame me for it.