The time when civilizations appeared

[Eloi]

Evolutionists agree with the Bible on a few things. For example, the oldest known civilization was the Sumerian, and the dating of everything associated with it does not exceed the fifth millennium BC.

From the Bible, which is a collection of records written in the first moment back to 1514 BC, one can make a sufficiently detailed human chronology to understand that Moses knew that the civilizations before him only went as far back as the same date as modern scholars likewise acknowledge, near 2.5 millennia before him.

How did Moses know that human civilization had begun at that time and in the same place where the modern science places it, if he had no way of measuring time before him by more than two thousand years? Did he have carbon clocks to measure ancient objects? Or did Moses really know the history of the origin of man and the original human civilization?

There are other questions about the first ancient civilization that I will analyze in this topic, such as: if evolutionists believe that the knowledge necessary for the appearance of a civilization is such a slow process, is it reasonable to believe that a first civilization would suddenly appear with everything that the Sumerian civilization had?

I suppose those who don't know first have to understand the real scope of the Sumerians as civilized human beings, so that they can then reason about how long it took them from a supposed archaic man in the style of evolutionary fiction, to men with advanced mathematics, knowledge of the skies, knowledge to transform the terrain, architecture knowledge, language and writing, literature with a high artistic level, ..., even schools for children.

Having started the subject... you already have to reason about the truth of the origin of civilized man: were they apes before the Sumerians? were they learning little by little before they suddenly built an empire like the Sumerian?

PS: We know about the Sumerian civilization from the writings of its time that have come down to us, and the testimony of people who lived long after that civilization ceased to exist, but who had evidence of its past.

[Eloi]

It seems that evolutionists don't want to get their teeth into the reasoning that opened this topic.

It is evident that if only 6 millennia ago a civilization appeared with all that it involves, it is because there was no slow process in which the details of that generation gradually came together. And in this case the same thing happens as all the fictitious slow changes of the supposed evolutionary process.

Imagine how much time and special events would have to have occurred before the appearance of the first known civilization (the Sumerian, only 6 millennia ago) for it to appear already formed with everything included in the package: maths, arts, language, education, astronomy, and countless other branches of human knowledge that evolutionists say could never before be integrated and form anything like a developed human civilization. Just imagine:

1) before the Sumerians someone had to be developing sexagesimal-based mathematics for millennia before it was part of the education of Sumerian children in their schools... but there never was a civilized school before, the evolutionists hint, or if had there been another earlier civilization, it would have been known by now.

2) the Sumerian arts and crafts would never have been consolidated; before them someone had to have been testing clay and firing methods, BUT how would that be possible if there is no civilization before Sumerian? Who was testing such things without research methods known only to civilized people?

3) the stars already had names, and the constellations, the milky way, our galaxy was already analyzed... BUT how would that be possible if they were just the first human civilization? How long could a group of uncivilized apes have been observing the night sky to register the celestial bodies with proper names and to know what time of year they appear in the sky? Did they pass that knowledge from ape to ape mimicking, until human language developed and then the first written records of the Sumerians were made?

Let's leave something for later... Let's hope that some evolutionist gets his teeth into the subject.

[Miles]

It seems that evolutionists don't want to get their teeth into the reasoning that opened this topic.

You poor thing. . . . . . . . . But okay, I'll bite.

Evolutionists agree with the Bible on a few things. For example, the oldest known civilization was the Sumerian, and the dating of everything associated with it does not exceed the fifth millennium BC.

Where in the Bible is the first known civilization acknowledge to be that of the Sumerians? Book, chapter, and verse will do.

From the Bible, which is a collection of records written in the first moment back to 1514 BC, one can make a sufficiently detailed human chronology to understand that Moses knew that the civilizations before him only went as far back as the same date as modern scholars likewise acknowledge, near 2.5 millennia before him.

Book, chapter, and verse will do.

How did Moses know that human civilization had begun at that time and in the same place where the modern science places it, if he had no way of measuring time before him by more than two thousand years? Did he have carbon clocks to measure ancient objects? Or did Moses really know the history of the origin of man and the original human civilization?

Book, chapter, and verse that Moses knew of such a beginning will do.

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[Eloi]

We know form the Bible that Adam was created 4025/6 B.C. and that he was already a civilized person, not an ape.

Adam had many descendants in a short time and the Bible shows there were soon developed arts and sciences ... and of course yes, if man was already intelligent since he was created.

Sumerians are just the first human civilization we know existed. They are dated in the same time that the Bible date humans and human development, yes, man was already intelligent since he was created.

It is not necessary to say that they were called Sumerians if it already says the time in which they appeared and where they were located.

[Miles]

We know form the Bible that Adam was created 4025/6 B.C. and that he was already a civilized person, not an ape.

Adam had many descendants in a short time and the Bible shows there were soon developed arts and sciences ... and of course yes, if man was already intelligent since he was created.

Sumerians are just the first human civilization we know existed. They are dated in the same time that the Bible date humans and human development, yes, man was already intelligent since he was created.

It is not necessary to say that they were called Sumerians if it already says the time in which they appeared and where they were located.

Just as I thought, you don't actually have any book, chapter, and verse to back up your claims.


... Have a good day

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[DrNoGods]

[Replying to Eloi in post #4]

We know form the Bible that Adam was created 4025/6 B.C. and that he was already a civilized person, not an ape.

From the guidelines for the Science and Religion section:

"While posters may certainly take positions based on religious doctrine, the Bible or other religious writings are not to be considered evidence for scientific claims."

There is ample evidence to show that humans existed long before the mythical Adam of the bible. Without using the bible as support for the quoted comment above, refute the scientific evidence that shows humans evolved from a great ape ancestor, and that modern Homo sapiens (ie. modern humans) appeared some 300,000 years ago give or take about 100K. You're challenging science with a religious argument that science has already shown conclusively to be wrong. Would you like some links and references explaining this? There are thousands.

[Eloi]

Scientists have not found an ancient text saying that the Sumerians called each other "Sumerians"; is a modern name for a civilization located in Mesopotamia, like the one the Bible talks about:

Gen. 4:16 Then Cain went away from before Jehovah and took up residence in the land of Exile, to the east of Eʹden.
17 Afterward Cain had sexual relations with his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Eʹnoch. Then he engaged in building a city and named the city after his son Eʹnoch. 18 Later Iʹrad was born to Eʹnoch. And Iʹrad became father to Me·huʹja·el, and Me·huʹja·el became father to Me·thuʹsha·el, and Me·thuʹsha·el became father to Laʹmech.
19 Laʹmech took two wives for himself. The name of the first was Aʹdah, and the name of the second was Zilʹlah. 20 Aʹdah gave birth to Jaʹbal. He was the founder of those who dwell in tents and have livestock. 21 His brother’s name was Juʹbal. He was the founder of all those who play the harp and the pipe. 22 Also, Zilʹlah gave birth to Tuʹbal-cain, who forged every sort of tool of copper and iron. And the sister of Tuʹbal-cain was Naʹa·mah.

What kind of stupidity is this to require a believer to find the name "Sumerians" in the Bible

[Miles]

Scientists have not found an ancient text saying that the Sumerians called each other "Sumerians"; is a modern name for a civilization located in Mesopotamia, like the one the Bible talks about:

Gen. 4:16 Then Cain went away from before Jehovah and took up residence in the land of Exile, to the east of Eʹden.
17 Afterward Cain had sexual relations with his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Eʹnoch. Then he engaged in building a city and named the city after his son Eʹnoch. 18 Later Iʹrad was born to Eʹnoch. And Iʹrad became father to Me·huʹja·el, and Me·huʹja·el became father to Me·thuʹsha·el, and Me·thuʹsha·el became father to Laʹmech.
19 Laʹmech took two wives for himself. The name of the first was Aʹdah, and the name of the second was Zilʹlah. 20 Aʹdah gave birth to Jaʹbal. He was the founder of those who dwell in tents and have livestock. 21 His brother’s name was Juʹbal. He was the founder of all those who play the harp and the pipe. 22 Also, Zilʹlah gave birth to Tuʹbal-cain, who forged every sort of tool of copper and iron. And the sister of Tuʹbal-cain was Naʹa·mah.

What kind of stupidity is this to require a believer to find the name "Sumerians" in the Bible

You're the one who brought up the Bible in conjunction with Sumerian civilization.

"Evolutionists agree with the Bible on a few things. For example, the oldest known civilization was the Sumerian, and the dating of everything associated with it does not exceed the fifth millennium BC."

How can evolutionists agree with the Bible that "the oldest known civilization was the Sumerian" if the Bible never mentions it? They can't. Yet, by virtue of your own words, the Bible must have mentioned it. That you have since found it does not isn't anyone else's mistake but your own. . C'mon Eloi, get in step, please.

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[Eloi]

Scientists have not found an ancient text saying that the Sumerians called each other "Sumerians"; is a modern name for a civilization located in Mesopotamia, like the one the Bible talks about:

Gen. 4:16 Then Cain went away from before Jehovah and took up residence in the land of Exile, to the east of Eʹden.
17 Afterward Cain had sexual relations with his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Eʹnoch. Then he engaged in building a city and named the city after his son Eʹnoch. 18 Later Iʹrad was born to Eʹnoch. And Iʹrad became father to Me·huʹja·el, and Me·huʹja·el became father to Me·thuʹsha·el, and Me·thuʹsha·el became father to Laʹmech.
19 Laʹmech took two wives for himself. The name of the first was Aʹdah, and the name of the second was Zilʹlah. 20 Aʹdah gave birth to Jaʹbal. He was the founder of those who dwell in tents and have livestock. 21 His brother’s name was Juʹbal. He was the founder of all those who play the harp and the pipe. 22 Also, Zilʹlah gave birth to Tuʹbal-cain, who forged every sort of tool of copper and iron. And the sister of Tuʹbal-cain was Naʹa·mah.

What kind of stupidity is this to require a believer to find the name "Sumerians" in the Bible

You're the one who brought up the Bible in conjunction with Sumerian civilization.

"Evolutionists agree with the Bible on a few things. For example, the oldest known civilization was the Sumerian, and the dating of everything associated with it does not exceed the fifth millennium BC."

How can evolutionists agree with the Bible that "the oldest known civilization was the Sumerian" if the Bible never mentions it? They can't. Yet, by virtue of your own words, the Bible must have mentioned it. That you have since found it does not isn't anyone else's mistake but your own. . C'mon Eloi, get in step, please.

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"Sumerians" because of dating and location, obviously.

Gen. 2:8 Further, Jehovah God planted a garden in Eʹden, toward the east; and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 Thus Jehovah God made to grow out of the ground every tree that was pleasing to look at and good for food and also the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and bad.
10 Now there was a river flowing out of Eʹden to water the garden, and from there it divided into four rivers. 11 The name of the first is Piʹshon; it is the one encircling the entire land of Havʹi·lah, where there is gold. 12 The gold of that land is good. Bdellium gum and onyx stone are also there. 13 The name of the second river is Giʹhon; it is the one encircling the entire land of Cush. 14 The name of the third river is Hidʹde·kel (Tigris); it is the one going to the east of As·syrʹi·a. And the fourth river is the Eu·phraʹtes. 15 Jehovah God took the man and settled him in the garden of Eʹden to cultivate it and to take care of it. (...) 23 With that Jehovah God expelled him from the garden of Eʹden to cultivate the ground from which he had been taken. 24 So he drove the man out, and he posted at the east of the garden of Eʹden the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning continuously to guard the way to the tree of life.

Same location: Mesopotamia, same time: near 4000 B.C.

How did Moses know that the first human civilization had settled there about 2,500 before he was born?

[Miles]

Scientists have not found an ancient text saying that the Sumerians called each other "Sumerians"; is a modern name for a civilization located in Mesopotamia, like the one the Bible talks about:

Gen. 4:16 Then Cain went away from before Jehovah and took up residence in the land of Exile, to the east of Eʹden.
17 Afterward Cain had sexual relations with his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Eʹnoch. Then he engaged in building a city and named the city after his son Eʹnoch. 18 Later Iʹrad was born to Eʹnoch. And Iʹrad became father to Me·huʹja·el, and Me·huʹja·el became father to Me·thuʹsha·el, and Me·thuʹsha·el became father to Laʹmech.
19 Laʹmech took two wives for himself. The name of the first was Aʹdah, and the name of the second was Zilʹlah. 20 Aʹdah gave birth to Jaʹbal. He was the founder of those who dwell in tents and have livestock. 21 His brother’s name was Juʹbal. He was the founder of all those who play the harp and the pipe. 22 Also, Zilʹlah gave birth to Tuʹbal-cain, who forged every sort of tool of copper and iron. And the sister of Tuʹbal-cain was Naʹa·mah.

What kind of stupidity is this to require a believer to find the name "Sumerians" in the Bible

You're the one who brought up the Bible in conjunction with Sumerian civilization.

"Evolutionists agree with the Bible on a few things. For example, the oldest known civilization was the Sumerian, and the dating of everything associated with it does not exceed the fifth millennium BC."

How can evolutionists agree with the Bible that "the oldest known civilization was the Sumerian" if the Bible never mentions it? They can't. Yet, by virtue of your own words, the Bible must have mentioned it. That you have since found it does not isn't anyone else's mistake but your own. . C'mon Eloi, get in step, please.

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"Sumerians" because of dating and location, obviously.

Not talking about "Sumerians," (a specific group of people) but the "Sumerian civilization." (Civilization: a complex society characterized by the development of the state, social stratification, urbanization, and symbolic systems of communication beyond natural spoken language.)


So, what are the Bible verses that give the dating and location of the Sumerian civilization? Book(s), chapter(s), and verse(s) will do.

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