Prayer

[POI]

For Debate: Is prayer just talking to yourself? If not, why not? Sure, prayer may make one feel satisfied/other, but there is likely no agency, on the other side, facilitating such desired response(s).

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People pray to many differing god(s) and/or other. Statistically speaking, many god(s) and/or other aren't answering, as many of these god(s) and/or other likely do not even exist. Hence, at least in part, many are merely talking to themselves in prayer. If many of the desired result(s) can happen in prayer, without any agency actually responding, because such agency does not exist, then it's quite plausible this is the case for all prayer.

[Masterblaster]

Hello

In a Universe with2+ Trillion Galaxies...
how hard is it to accept..

1. There are alien life forms out there
2. We are in the bottom 50% of life form development and capability.
3. We are the only living life forms in the Universe.
4. Christian Doctrine is true.

My guess
1. YES
2. YES
3. NO
4. NO

Do I believe in Aliens?
If I had a use for them, I probably would.

The existence of God and the theism concept is plausible and extremely useful and relevant, and free. Alternatively stand with a placard stating that there is no God , for what reason, I do not know.

Thanks

[POI]

If you disagree with the philosophy of Jesus then argue against it on that basis, but ,please do not dismiss it because it hasn't worked for you.

I already have. Jesus wants a relationship with all his created humans. For some reason, he skips some, even when they repeatedly ask, or ask others in petitionary/intercessory prayer for him to contact the uncontacted. Something logically has to give. A) He does not adhere to his word, or, B) he is not really there. He is either dishonest, or, not there in the first place. I really see no third option.

How do you know you are not talking to yourself in prayer? If I thought he was really listening and/or talking to me, I would tell you how I know.

Thanks

[Mae von H]

[Replying to POI in post #115]

POI, if you still want God to make Himself such that are aware of Him, you are going to have to:

1. Stop insulting Him. Drop the insulting signature and stop complaining He doesn’t do your bidding as you require. This discipline to your pleasure you must insist from yourself.

2. Surrender all expectations as to how He will choose to respond. He will not be used to please human desire for pleasurable experiences.

3. Set no deadline or else. No proud threats.

4. You must ask His forgiveness for your proud demanding ways that He perform and your maligning His character to others. You’ve joined his enemies. You must leave that team forthwith.

Praying will not suffice.

1 & 3. It's impossible to insult a claimed deity that is not really there. I gave up well over half my life asking for him to reach me directly, and he ignored me. He's likely not really there at all. But, just in case, I have now resorted to asking others, who claim to speak to him, to be the God-proxy, and to ask him to contact me. The ball is in your/his court now. I won't hold my breath but will await much more Christian apologetics to come.

What part of your life did you give up? How did you do this? There is some doubt about this claim.

2. I've already stated that I do not know exactly what it would take to be convinced, but God would. He has perpetually chosen to skip me. Hence, I guess he does not want me to know. Further, if he "will not be used to please human desire for pleasurable experiences", then it does not matter whether or not I ask him to contact me

You are taking the controlling upper position. He’s supposed to seek you. He won’t. He said you need to humbly seek Him. This you refuse to do. And I am fairly confident what I’ve given you to do is what He requires. So you do know what to do. You refuse to do it and claim ignorance.

I know Him better than you do and it’s not even difficult. You only need to surrender your attacking and insulting Him for start. Take down your signature that is misrepresenting Him. He gives bicycles and no forgiveness is grants thieves who don’t return the goods. How hard would that be to remove?

4. Doubting that he exists, because he has decided not to convince me, makes me an enemy? He could change that immediately, if he wanted to.

The doubting isn’t the problem. I told you the problem. You continually accuse Him of wrong. In the above you accuse Him of (arbitrarily) “deciding” not to “convince” you according to how you DEMAND He needs to do so. You put yourself in the place of the ring master and he’s to be the performing lion. If He doesn’t do as you demand, he gets the whip of your words. This isn’t humble.

But it’s not He who is feeling the pain, you are. You can insist “the ball is in his court” thinking you are ruling Him through blackmail. (Either He performs or you’ll refuse to believe as though you’re granting Him a favor.) But He will not perform according to your demands. Two cannot walk together unless there is enough like mindedness.

From observation, I think you will not find the satisfaction you seek. “You accuse Him to justify yourself.” He’s tried to help you but you refuse.

[Masterblaster]

Hello

The personal declaration of belief or disbelief in God is irrelevant ,imho. How you proceed from your declaration , will also be objectively irrelevant.
I believe in God is the same as I do not believe in God. (Deism).You leave a town and go to a town by the same road. How is it not so?

You have little capacity to make objective decisions.
Leave that to God, imho

Just sort yourself out as best you can. Take advice from whatever source you feel most comfortable with. Challenge your decisions, constantly as POI is doing. Every rebel reaches their resting spot in the end
Thanks

[1213]

But you have not told me why you believe you are not merely talking to yourself in prayer?

I believe because I trust the Bible and also because things seems to go as God hears the prayer.

[POI]

But you have not told me why you believe you are not merely talking to yourself in prayer?

I believe because I trust the Bible and also because things seems to go as God hears the prayer.

Are you sure you are not merely accepting the hits, and ignoring the misses? Or, as I asked prior, throwing a dart at the wall, and after the dart hits, you draw a bull's-eye around the dart?

[POI]

Mae What part of your life did you give up? How did you do this? There is some doubt about this claim.

POI The first 3 (plus) decades of it. I was a devout believer and prayed daily. I also regularly attended church and listened with full attention and with full willingness to learn.

Mae You are taking the controlling upper position. He’s supposed to seek you. He won’t. He said you need to humbly seek Him. This you refuse to do. And I am fairly confident what I’ve given you to do is what He requires. So you do know what to do. You refuse to do it and claim ignorance.

POI I did the opposite for 3 decades. That did not work either. (Hypothetical) - If you tried to seek out your biological mother for 3 decades, you knew she existed, and you also knew she was aware, and she never responded, when would YOU finally stop?

Mae I know Him better than you do

POI As Masterblaster has indicated, people who say this are full of beans.

Mae The doubting isn’t the problem.

POI Yes, it is, according to Mark 16:16. But, as required, one must spin some of the Bible, or ignore some of it, or both.

Mae From observation, I think you will not find the satisfaction you seek. “You accuse Him to justify yourself.” He’s tried to help you but you refuse.

POI How did he try, when he ignored me for 3 decades?

[Mae von H]

Mae What part of your life did you give up? How did you do this? There is some doubt about this claim.

POI The first 3 (plus) decades of it. I was a devout believer and prayed daily. I also regularly attended church and listened with full attention and with full willingness to learn.

How is that giving up your life? Catholic, I assume.

Mae You are taking the controlling upper position. He’s supposed to seek you. He won’t. He said you need to humbly seek Him. This you refuse to do. And I am fairly confident what I’ve given you to do is what He requires. So you do know what to do. You refuse to do it and claim ignorance.

POI I did the opposite for 3 decades. That did not work either. (Hypothetical) - If you tried to seek out your biological mother for 3 decades, you knew she existed, and you also knew she was aware, and she never responded, when would YOU finally stop?

So far all you did was attend church and pray. You otherwise paid attention. That is not seeking. But in any case, it obvious what you expected is not what happened. Surely you agree on that.

Mae I know Him better than you do

POI As Masterblaster has indicated, people who say this are full of beans.

How would he know? Does he think that Jesus’ words are full of beans?

Mae The doubting isn’t the problem.

POI Yes, it is, according to Mark 16:16. But, as required, one must spin some of the Bible, or ignore some of it, or both.

Did you solve your own query? You expect believing is spinning or ignoring.

Mae From observation, I think you will not find the satisfaction you seek. “You accuse Him to justify yourself.” He’s tried to help you but you refuse.

POI How did he try, when he ignored me for 3 decades?

This I wouldn’t know. I wasn’t there. But surely your categorizing faith as “ignoring” or “spinning” precludes Him getting through.

Any success He would have had with you would have been lost since you decided what form His communication needs to take. Knowing your style, it’s likely God was restricted to a) b) c) or d) choices. God answered me because I gave Him all the freedom and time and manner He chose. There were no restrictions or expectations on my part.

[1213]

But you have not told me why you believe you are not merely talking to yourself in prayer?

I believe because I trust the Bible and also because things seems to go as God hears the prayer.

Are you sure you are not merely accepting the hits, and ignoring the misses? Or, as I asked prior, throwing a dart at the wall, and after the dart hits, you draw a bull's-eye around the dart?

As I said, I believe, I can't prove. I understand that one could say it was just a coincidence. I don't believe in coincidences.

[Mae von H]

But you have not told me why you believe you are not merely talking to yourself in prayer?

I believe because I trust the Bible and also because things seems to go as God hears the prayer.

Are you sure you are not merely accepting the hits, and ignoring the misses? Or, as I asked prior, throwing a dart at the wall, and after the dart hits, you draw a bull's-eye around the dart?

As I said, I believe, I can't prove. I understand that one could say it was just a coincidence. I don't believe in coincidences.

When one has experienced so many prayers answered as asked, it no longer can honestly chalked up to coincidence. The evidence becomes overwhelming. There is more, of course, but these answers increases one’s faith as well as understanding. Unbelievers cannot accept this so don’t expect anything but jeering.