Prayer

[POI]

For Debate: Is prayer just talking to yourself? If not, why not? Sure, prayer may make one feel satisfied/other, but there is likely no agency, on the other side, facilitating such desired response(s).

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People pray to many differing god(s) and/or other. Statistically speaking, many god(s) and/or other aren't answering, as many of these god(s) and/or other likely do not even exist. Hence, at least in part, many are merely talking to themselves in prayer. If many of the desired result(s) can happen in prayer, without any agency actually responding, because such agency does not exist, then it's quite plausible this is the case for all prayer.

[TRANSPONDER]

Mae No, it is not.

POI LOL! Tell that to Transponder, as well. I, myself, will let the readers see.

Mae It varys. These matters are not as simple as you assume. But best talk to them and then you might know. How many people who prayed to Hindu gods or Allah have you talked to recently?

POI In my line of work, I speak to all of them. They all believe they are speaking to their true god(s). But enough with my anecdotal claims, which likely mean nothing to you. You believe you are speaking to the one true god, right? How do you KNOW you are not merely only speaking to yourself in prayer?

What line of work is that? And you are, again, wrong about your experience meaning nothing to me. That is Ts and the general atheist position. When a person's experience disagrees with their position, it is deemed "ancedotal" and discredited. If it agrees, then it is "evidence."

But since you deem personal experience "anecdotal" my personal experience as to how I KNOW that God is answering will likely mean nothing to you. There is probably no way to answer that question that will be of value to you, is there?

Sorry about that. I know it must be annoying to post a claim and have the bloke at the other end say "I cannot accept anecdotal claims as evidence". The fact is that I have no way to validate the claim. I don't know what factors you may have left out or misremembered (time to post the vid on the relevant thinking again)

But one is forced to do this or anyone could claim anything. You would hardly accept it if I said that Vishnu came on a mental visit and told me Christianity was not true. Even if you credited that I was saying what I thought was the truth, you might think I was just mistaken.

Personal experience claims do not cut it as valid evidence.

Now, when I talk about voices in the head, I am refereeing not only to my own experience and those related by others, about how they came to realise they were praying to themselves, and I have no reason to suppose others who pray to other gods are not doing the same.

In short, the ball is in your court to validate your contention that Your interpretation of prayer is true.

[Mae von H]

Mae No, it is not.

POI LOL! Tell that to Transponder, as well. I, myself, will let the readers see.

Mae It varys. These matters are not as simple as you assume. But best talk to them and then you might know. How many people who prayed to Hindu gods or Allah have you talked to recently?

POI In my line of work, I speak to all of them. They all believe they are speaking to their true god(s). But enough with my anecdotal claims, which likely mean nothing to you. You believe you are speaking to the one true god, right? How do you KNOW you are not merely only speaking to yourself in prayer?

What line of work is that? And you are, again, wrong about your experience meaning nothing to me. That is Ts and the general atheist position. When a person's experience disagrees with their position, it is deemed "ancedotal" and discredited. If it agrees, then it is "evidence."

But since you deem personal experience "anecdotal" my personal experience as to how I KNOW that God is answering will likely mean nothing to you. There is probably no way to answer that question that will be of value to you, is there?

I work in the medical field and will leave it there.

Is all you have is your own (anecdotal evidence) that the Bible God actually addresses/answers anyone's prayer?

I work in the medical field as well. Not sure how that enables you to interact with and talk with people about how they pray as that is generally fairly professional where I work. We do not discuss prayer at work, so that is curious as to how you do, but I will leave it as you wish.

The second is a very interesting question. You wanted personal affirmation of God being that at some point in your life and I a gather from your words that you very much wanted this. But if I share with you the same, that is, evidence that God is real and is who the Bible says He is, you dismiss it all as "anecdotal" and therefore invalid. How should God have shown you He is there if you dismiss any personal experience is unworthy (anecdotal) of you building your whole life upon that understanding? Your position renders all personal experience as essentially unreliable. Do you see why there is no way that God can demonstrate to you that He is there? It will all be, 100% merely anecdotal.

You know, my belief that my husband loves me is 100% anecdotal. My belief that my children love me is 100% anecdotal. Their belief that I love them is 100% anecdotal. It is all based on personal experience. And yet I have build my family upon that "anecdotal" experience. I suppose you think all eye witness accounts of events are merely anecdotal as well, right? I mean they saw or heard something and report of it but it is merely anecdotal, right?

As it is, I have extremely strong intellectual reasons for believing as I do, which is not really in the anecdotal description. So this leads me to ask, on this forum, where we merely have words to exchange, is that any evidence that you would not consider anecdotal? If everything I can say is for you anecdotal, then there isn't much point in sharing evidence is there? This is what I mean by you being the judge and not the learner.

As a child, i remember like it was yesterday, asking God if he was real would He show this to me. I wanted to know the truth. I had no expectations. I had no time limit nor how this was to be done. I was not asking Him to justify himself to me in any way. And He did. Some of the particulars I remember but I think it was over many years He did just that and I never looked back again at wondering if He was there. I knew He was and went on from there. So why did He do so for me? Because I was open and patient and wanted the truth no matter how long it took and it took years I believe. I also cannot recall doing anything whatsoever in the matter. I did not pray or any other religious activity trying to squeeze this out of Him. I was passive, more or less. The ball was in his court and I fully expected He would answer if He was there. In that way, I guess you could say I had that amount of faith. It never occurred to me that he would not answer if He were there. That faith was enough it seems.

[Mae von H]

Mae No, it is not.

POI LOL! Tell that to Transponder, as well. I, myself, will let the readers see.

Mae It varys. These matters are not as simple as you assume. But best talk to them and then you might know. How many people who prayed to Hindu gods or Allah have you talked to recently?

POI In my line of work, I speak to all of them. They all believe they are speaking to their true god(s). But enough with my anecdotal claims, which likely mean nothing to you. You believe you are speaking to the one true god, right? How do you KNOW you are not merely only speaking to yourself in prayer?

What line of work is that? And you are, again, wrong about your experience meaning nothing to me. That is Ts and the general atheist position. When a person's experience disagrees with their position, it is deemed "ancedotal" and discredited. If it agrees, then it is "evidence."

But since you deem personal experience "anecdotal" my personal experience as to how I KNOW that God is answering will likely mean nothing to you. There is probably no way to answer that question that will be of value to you, is there?

Sorry about that. I know it must be annoying to post a claim and have the bloke at the other end say "I cannot accept anecdotal claims as evidence". The fact is that I have no way to validate the claim. I don't know what factors you may have left out or misremembered (time to post the vid on the relevant thinking again)

But one is forced to do this or anyone could claim anything. You would hardly accept it if I said that Vishnu came on a mental visit and told me Christianity was not true. Even if you credited that I was saying what I thought was the truth, you might think I was just mistaken.

Personal experience claims do not cut it as valid evidence.

Now, when I talk about voices in the head, I am refereeing not only to my own experience and those related by others, about how they came to realise they were praying to themselves, and I have no reason to suppose others who pray to other gods are not doing the same.

In short, the ball is in your court to validate your contention that Your interpretation of prayer is true.

You do realize that your experience of realising that you and others were praying to themselves is a personal experience and "does not cut it as valid evidence" right? Your statement discrediting personal experience just cut off the branch upon which you were sitting.

So I have the right to claim that your experience of realizing you were just hearing your own voice is not valid. Which is convenient because that is exactly my position. It might be you just heard yourself and could not hear God, but that does not mean that God does not speak to others and they hear Him. You personal experience of only hearing you does not trump my personal experience of hearing Him as well as my own voice. You see, I hear my own voice as well as His and I know the difference.

Now hearing anyone from your sibling to your boss to your sweetheart is a personal experience and generally speaking, we do not invalidate that communication experience because we personally hear with our own senses. Just so, I know when God is speaking to me, and He does so frequently, because what He says is nothing I would have thought of saying. The understanding He gives me is outside of my ability to think of myself.

To be truthful, I share this because you are respectful of me as a person and not insulting. THe particulars I am loath to share just as I would not share the sweet things my husband said to me yesterday. You might just dismiss them as personal experience (which they are) and therefore no evidence of that which I know to be true.

The problem we are facing is this. Walking with the One True God is a deeply personal experience. While your side values and validates your own experience of a lack of an awareness of Him, (that is not called anecdotal), any one who does walk with God and trys to share this is dismissed simply because their experience is invalid. Your experience is valid but my experience is not, in your eyes. I do not see how anyone can overcome these two different standards of measure.

The other point is that a personal relationship with God or a spiritual being is unique to the Jewish faith and Christianity. You can blithely insert the words used in Hinduism or Islam for their gods in the sentence, but those faiths do not teach nor expect a personal relationship. Their gods do not speak to them and they do not say they do. No Hindu gods come and visit the Hindu. They do not expect this. So you used Christian language in a religion that does not teach those concepts. They do not have that experience and do not say they do.

Now you were in the faith and maybe heard people claim God spoke to them, evaluated this, as you should, and found it to be self-delusion. I This is actually quite common so I can see who you can draw that conclusion that the whole thing is bunk. It is not but I admit is it rare to find believers who know the difference between God speaking and them talking to themselves. I have heard claims it was God speaking to them but clearly, to anyone who knows God, it was not. It did not meet the test. So maybe this contributed to your view.

[Mae von H]

[Replying to POI in post #110]

By the way, your signature is evidence that you do not believe God answers prayer and the person saying it does not at all know how God works. One of the evidences I knew God was there was when I asked Him and Him alone for something and when I got it, left over item from a garage sale my family had, I knew God had provided it. So the author of that piece is wrong. God does work that way and no forgiveness would not be granted until the bike was returned. Wrong in two ways. It is no wonder He does not answer you. You write words that are insulting to Him.

[POI]

The second is a very interesting question. You wanted personal affirmation of God being that at some point in your life and I a gather from your words that you very much wanted this. But if I share with you the same, that is, evidence that God is real and is who the Bible says He is, you dismiss it all as "anecdotal" and therefore invalid.

I'm not saying I would dismiss it, just because it is anecdotal. I'm asking if <anecdotal evidence> is the ONLY type of "evidence" to demonstrate that you are not merely talking to yourself. Is it? If so, then we run into possible problems. How do I know you have presented all the necessary data objectively for examination? There is no other way for me to do so, other than to take you at your word. And not because I deem you a liar. No. It is instead because you may have forgot about some things, or other... I have to work with only what data you give me.

How should God have shown you He is there if you dismiss any personal experience is unworthy (anecdotal) of you building your whole life upon that understanding? Your position renders all personal experience as essentially unreliable. Do you see why there is no way that God can demonstrate to you that He is there? It will all be, 100% merely anecdotal.

Negative. I've repeatedly asked why he has never contacted me. I've even told you that if I truly felt he had ever contacted me, maybe I too would be placing forth the same Christian apologetics arguments you present. I continue to ask now... Why is he skipping me? I asked, in earnest for over 3 decades.

You know, my belief that my husband loves me is 100% anecdotal. My belief that my children love me is 100% anecdotal. Their belief that I love them is 100% anecdotal. It is all based on personal experience. And yet I have build my family upon that "anecdotal" experience. I suppose you think all eye witness accounts of events are merely anecdotal as well, right? I mean they saw or heard something and report of it but it is merely anecdotal, right?

Wrong. I'm not questioning the existence of your husband and children. I've not asking if you are talking to yourself, when you claim to speak to your husband and children. You are already leaps and bounds ahead, as I know people exist, and people general love their spouse and parents. This is not very far-fetched at all, even if I take you art your word alone about the love of these folks.

As it is, I have extremely strong intellectual reasons for believing as I do, which is not really in the anecdotal description. So this leads me to ask, on this forum, where we merely have words to exchange, is that any evidence that you would not consider anecdotal? If everything I can say is for you anecdotal, then there isn't much point in sharing evidence is there? This is what I mean by you being the judge and not the learner.

Lay it on me. What "extremely strong intellectual reasons" do you have to know you are not merely talking to yourself in prayer?

As a child, i remember like it was yesterday, asking God if he was real would He show this to me. I wanted to know the truth. I had no expectations. I had no time limit nor how this was to be done. I was not asking Him to justify himself to me in any way. And He did. Some of the particulars I remember but I think it was over many years He did just that and I never looked back again at wondering if He was there. I knew He was and went on from there. So why did He do so for me? Because I was open and patient and wanted the truth no matter how long it took and it took years I believe. I also cannot recall doing anything whatsoever in the matter. I did not pray or any other religious activity trying to squeeze this out of Him. I was passive, more or less. The ball was in his court and I fully expected He would answer if He was there. In that way, I guess you could say I had that amount of faith. It never occurred to me that he would not answer if He were there. That faith was enough it seems.

Okay, you have not given me the reason(s) yet, but the Bible God is recorded to contact people who ask, and people who don't. Kind of like you even. So why does he SKIP some, if his goal is for everyone to have a relationship with him?

[Mae von H]

The second is a very interesting question. You wanted personal affirmation of God being that at some point in your life and I a gather from your words that you very much wanted this. But if I share with you the same, that is, evidence that God is real and is who the Bible says He is, you dismiss it all as "anecdotal" and therefore invalid.

I'm not saying I would dismiss it, just because it is anecdotal. I'm asking if <anecdotal evidence> is the ONLY type of "evidence" to demonstrate that you are not merely talking to yourself. Is it?

“Anecdotal”reports by definition have no validity. That you allow yourself to call testimony “anecdotal” means you will dismiss it. Witnesses in a trial can only offer anecdotal evidence and yet no one calls it that. My entire family life is built on anecdotal experiences. It’s extremely satisfying, but that too is merely anecdotal to you.

If so, then we run into possible problems. How do I know you have presented all the necessary data objectively for examination?

You will have to think. Take, for example, the emotionally charged insulting words some atheists here use. That’s a perfect example of completely subjective posting. Dismiss it. They WANT their position to be correct rather than think it is so.

There is no other way for me to do so, other than to take you at your word. And not because I deem you a liar. No. It is instead because you may have forgot about some things, or other... I have to work with only what data you give me.

Can’t you read between the lines?

And yes, Ihave solid intellectual reasons for my position gleaned over decades.

How should God have shown you He is there if you dismiss any personal experience is unworthy (anecdotal) of you building your whole life upon that understanding? Your position renders all personal experience as essentially unreliable. Do you see why there is no way that God can demonstrate to you that He is there? It will all be, 100% merely anecdotal.

Negative. I've repeatedly asked why he has never contacted me. I've even told you that if I truly felt he had ever contacted me, maybe I too would be placing forth the same Christian apologetics arguments you present. I continue to ask now... Why is he skipping me? I asked, in earnest for over 3 decades.

Your judging Him wrong and accusing Him of character faults shows that you demanded an answer in the form you decided. You also
put a time limit it seems. He won’t comply.

You know, my belief that my husband loves me is 100% anecdotal. My belief that my children love me is 100% anecdotal. Their belief that I love them is 100% anecdotal. It is all based on personal experience. And yet I have build my family upon that "anecdotal" experience. I suppose you think all eye witness accounts of events are merely anecdotal as well, right? I mean they saw or heard something and report of it but it is merely anecdotal, right?

Wrong. I'm not questioning the existence of your husband and children. I've not asking if you are talking to yourself, when you claim to speak to your husband and children. You are already leaps and bounds ahead, as I know people exist, and people general love their spouse and parents. This is not very far-fetched at all, even if I take you art your word alone about the love of these folks.

Wrong understanding and that’s not what I said. I said the RELATIONSHIP is built on what you call “anecdotal.” My relationship with God is built on exactly the same. It’s unseen, immaterial and yet solid. I moved beyond the knowledge that God exists decades ago and built a relationship. Many men exist. Doesn’t make them my husband.

As it is, I have extremely strong intellectual reasons for believing as I do, which is not really in the anecdotal description. So this leads me to ask, on this forum, where we merely have words to exchange, is that any evidence that you would not consider anecdotal? If everything I can say is for you anecdotal, then there isn't much point in sharing evidence is there? This is what I mean by you being the judge and not the learner.

Lay it on me. What "extremely strong intellectual reasons" do you have to know you are not merely talking to yourself in prayer?

Statistical odds. Will you accept them?

As a child, i remember like it was yesterday, asking God if he was real would He show this to me. I wanted to know the truth. I had no expectations. I had no time limit nor how this was to be done. I was not asking Him to justify himself to me in any way. And He did. Some of the particulars I remember but I think it was over many years He did just that and I never looked back again at wondering if He was there. I knew He was and went on from there. So why did He do so for me? Because I was open and patient and wanted the truth no matter how long it took and it took years I believe. I also cannot recall doing anything whatsoever in the matter. I did not pray or any other religious activity trying to squeeze this out of Him. I was passive, more or less. The ball was in his court and I fully expected He would answer if He was there. In that way, I guess you could say I had that amount of faith. It never occurred to me that he would not answer if He were there. That faith was enough it seems.

Okay, you have not given me the reason(s) yet, but the Bible God is recorded to contact people who ask, and people who don't. Kind of like you even. So why does he SKIP some, if his goal is for everyone to have a relationship with him?

I told you, the heart that is asking. Is it to learn the truth and then one will decide to believe it not reserving the position of judge for oneself? Is He to be the servant or performing lion and you’re the ring master? It’s rests entirely on humility or pride. God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.

[Mae von H]

[Replying to POI in post #115]

POI, if you still want God to make Himself such that are aware of Him, you are going to have to:

1. Stop insulting Him. Drop the insulting signature and stop complaining He doesn’t do your bidding as you require. This discipline to your pleasure you must insist from yourself.

2. Surrender all expectations as to how He will choose to respond. He will not be used to please human desire for pleasurable experiences.

3. Set no deadline or else. No proud threats.

4. You must ask His forgiveness for your proud demanding ways that He perform and your maligning His character to others. You’ve joined his enemies. You must leave that team forthwith.

Praying will not suffice.

[Masterblaster]

[Replying to Mae von H in post #117]

Hello Mae von H

I generally agree with the tone of your synopsis on prayer,...but be careful. It may come across to the Skeptic ear as unsubstantiated platitudes.

Look at your list, it is all about the person praying, and in that sense God might as well not be there at all. God could be a chair for the same prayer modus to apply.

The difference is that what we consider to be God when we pray is a genuine influencer of our fate. That is why we pray to God in humility and respect. We basically agree MvH, I think , but also understand the sceptical reception that your explanation will receive. I think you do
Thanks

[Mae von H]

[Replying to Mae von H in post #117]

Hello Mae von H

I generally agree with the tone of your synopsis on prayer,...but be careful. It may come across to the Skeptic ear as unsubstantiated platitudes.

Look at your list, it is all about the person praying, and in that sense God might as well not be there at all. God could be a chair for the same prayer modus to apply.

The difference is that what we consider to be God when we pray is a genuine influencer of our fate. That is why we pray to God in humility and respect. We basically agree MvH, I think , but also understand the sceptical reception that your explanation will receive. I think you do
Thanks

Hi MB,
Thanks for your response and input. If you notice, the list hits the character of the seeker mainly to humble yourself. I do not see any way around dealing with your own heart if a man wants to hear from God. If others call it "platitudes" what can I say? Isn't the sermon on the mount platitudes?

As for unsubstantiated, that is not correct. Off the top of my head, scripture says, blessed are the pure in HEART for they shall see God, God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble, humble yourself therefore, the eyes of the Lord go to and fro throughout the earth that they might find the one whose heart is completely his, if anyone seeks God, he must believe that God is and is a rewarder of those who seek Him, without holiness shall no man see God. These are all questions of the heart, all of them. It is not deeds or words or sacrifice with fastings or such. God looks at the heart of a man about which we often fool ourselves as to our own goodness.

So I gave POI some practical steps he absolutely must take if he wants God to answer him. And I surmise that the man desperately wants God to contact him. You can also taste the desperate desire, which is admirable and wrings the heart. But there will be no response from God if the man refuses to stop attacking God's character. And it is not that difficult. Simply stop telling everyone God is not good. God will honor that restraint from a pleasure he allows himself to indulge in.

I do know that I am fighting common christian teaching that God chooses and we have nothing to do with it. I know many think that us humbling ourselves is prideful (although if you think about it it is absurd.) I know this. But one can easily see that actually hearing from God is rare among these types. There is a connection there. Anyway, thanks for your kind response. I do not see how I can help the man and not tell him what he has to do.

[Mae von H]

[Replying to Mae von H in post #117]

Hello Mae von H

The difference is that what we consider to be God when we pray is a genuine influencer of our fate. That is why we pray to God in humility and respect. We basically agree MvH, I think , but also understand the sceptical reception that your explanation will receive. I think you do
Thanks

On this point I would clarify something. What we consider God to be plays no role whatever on the outcome except if what we think He is, He really is, that is we know the truth or if what we think He isn’t, that can result in no answer. Otherwise our understanding doesn’t change Him. It’s best to pray to who He knows Himself to be.