Prayer

[POI]

For Debate: Is prayer just talking to yourself? If not, why not? Sure, prayer may make one feel satisfied/other, but there is likely no agency, on the other side, facilitating such desired response(s).

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People pray to many differing god(s) and/or other. Statistically speaking, many god(s) and/or other aren't answering, as many of these god(s) and/or other likely do not even exist. Hence, at least in part, many are merely talking to themselves in prayer. If many of the desired result(s) can happen in prayer, without any agency actually responding, because such agency does not exist, then it's quite plausible this is the case for all prayer.

[POI]

Mae How is that giving up your life? Catholic, I assume.

POI Finding out that you prayed to yourself, after doing it for decades, isn't a waste of time? Further, why does it matter what denomination(s) I was? Are the Catholics, or the Protestants, or the Orthodox, wrong?

Mae So far all you did was attend church and pray. You otherwise paid attention. That is not seeking. But in any case, it obvious what you expected is not what happened. Surely you agree on that.

POI I'm sure I did everything you did, and maybe even more. And yet, he skipped me. If God wants a relationship with all, especially the ones who seek him, ignoring them is illogical.

Mae How would he know? Does he think that Jesus’ words are full of beans?

POI No. He's saying anyone who states they know God is full of beans. And I tend to agree.

Mae Did you solve your own query? You expect believing is spinning or ignoring.

POI You stated belief isn't required. But I provided a Bible verse which states otherwise.

Mae This I wouldn’t know.

POI You do not know because it defies logic. Again, if one earnestly seeks him, and he wants a relationship, there is no logical reason to ignore the ones who seek him.

[Masterblaster]

Hello Mae von H

You say- ". Unbelievers cannot accept this so don’t expect anything but jeering."


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This is called ' I'm thinking of a number and you have to guess it'...I guess it and you tell me that you know I am wrong. What would you expect for the arrogance and deception of this game of yours, only jeering?

If I say, document the hits and misses of your prayers, would you do it. More importantly, would you record and declare them before their realization.
You would correctly refuse as that would appear to be tempting fate(faith,in your case). The betting shops in my town are full of self-declared geniuses who predict winners after the event.

Bunkum! MvH, and you probably know that too.

There is wisdom in some of your stuff but it is well disguised in the straw.

Thanks

[Mae von H]

Hello Mae von H

You say- ". Unbelievers cannot accept this so don’t expect anything but jeering."


----
This is called ' I'm thinking of a number and you have to guess it'...I guess it and you tell me that you know I am wrong. What would you expect for the arrogance and deception of this game of yours, only jeering?

I’m not arrogant or deceptive. Not in the least and you fail to provide examples of such. I’m not playing games either. Why do you feel it’s necessary to be so insulting?

If I say, document the hits and misses of your prayers, would you do it. More importantly, would you record and declare them before their realization.

Have done so many times. But I’d be a fool to do so here, throwing my pearls. PM possibly. But there are ways to prayer such that prayers are answered.

You would correctly refuse as that would appear to be tempting fate(faith,in your case). The betting shops in my town are full of self-declared geniuses who predict winners after the event.

As you can see, you’re wrong.

Bunkum! MvH, and you probably know that too.

There is wisdom in some of your stuff but it is well disguised in the straw.

Thanks

Why do you say “thanks?”

[Masterblaster]

Hello Mae von H

Thanks to the people who read my stuff to the end. I do not presume that this will happen. There is no point in us 'beating around the bush', on this debate site. You may agree! Do you have that phrase where you are?

Thanks

[Mae von H]

Mae How is that giving up your life? Catholic, I assume.

POI Finding out that you prayed to yourself, after doing it for decades, isn't a waste of time? Further, why does it matter what denomination(s) I was? Are the Catholics, or the Protestants, or the Orthodox, wrong?

. It’s better I don’t go farther there. Question withdrawn.

Mae So far all you did was attend church and pray. You otherwise paid attention. That is not seeking. But in any case, it obvious what you expected is not what happened. Surely you agree on that.

POI I'm sure I did everything you did, and maybe even more. And yet, he skipped me. If God wants a relationship with all, especially the ones who seek him, ignoring them is illogical.

Absolutely you didn’t do what I did. Of this there can be no doubt. You have expectations and requirements I didn’t have. Your whole attitude is 180 degrees different.

Mae How would he know? Does he think that Jesus’ words are full of beans?

POI No. He's saying anyone who states they know God is full of beans. And I tend to agree.

Then neither of you will ever be able to learn from them. And you are saying Jesus’ words are full of beans too. This lack of faith prevents Him from revealing himself to you as well. You won’t want to be “full of beans” you know.

“This is eternal life, that they know you, the One True God.”

Guess you two think he was full of beans. I know He told the truth, because I know Him, the One True God.

Mae Did you solve your own query? You expect believing is spinning or ignoring.

POI You stated belief isn't required. But I provided a Bible verse which states otherwise.

I did NOT say that. Please stop saying I did.

Mae This I wouldn’t know.

POI You do not know because it defies logic. Again, if one earnestly seeks him, and he wants a relationship, there is no logical reason to ignore the ones who seek him.

It is a question about earnestly seeking Him. Just going to to church, paying attention (whether the speaker knew God or if it was merely religious) and praying for an experience is not earnestly seeking Him. And if the seeking is for experience, none will be given. We are not to seek experience.

But as long as you blame Him, they’ll be no answer from Him. But this is pointless.

[POI]

Mae I cannot speak to your prayers being unanswered. It’s also better I don’t go farther there. Question withdrawn.

POI I do not blame you. Religious belief often times does not prevail by the use of logic. But instead, emotion.

Mae Absolutely you didn’t do what I did. Of this there can be no doubt. You have expectations and requirements I didn’t have. Your whole attitude is 180 degrees different.

POI Can you please stop. You have no idea what I did. Further, I have already demonstrated that you do not really need to do any of it anyways. Remember Saul of Tarsus?

Mae I know He told the truth, because I know Him, the One True God.

POI All this response convinces me of, is that (you) are convinced. And I never questioned (your) conviction.

Mae It is a question about earnestly seeking Him.

POI This answer speaks volumes. Are you suggesting I'm not earnest? Further, as I've repeatedly pointed out, Saul of Tarsus.

Mae But as long as you blame Him, they’ll be no answer from Him. But this is pointless.

POI No, I do not blame him any more than I blame any other perceived and/or likely imaginary character. I blame myself for wasting 30 (plus) years talking to myself. But, this could all change in the drop of a hat. Since you are chummy with Him, and winning converts could not be frowned upon by the said almighty, I ask that you ask him to reach me. We know he can do it, if he wants. I ask that you ask him to reach me in a way for which I could no longer deny his presence. I would still have the free will to reject him, (even though I likely wouldn't), and I would definitely no longer be a skeptic/agnostic/atheist or whatever other label.... I'll instead await all the apologetic excuses, as to why you will not.

[Mae von H]

Mae I cannot speak to your prayers being unanswered. It’s also better I don’t go farther there. Question withdrawn.

POI I do not blame you. Religious belief often times does not prevail by the use of logic. But instead, emotion.

That is not the reason. And my faith is more grounded in logic that your unbelief. Your atheism is deeply embedded in emotion as seen by the personal attacks you engage in. This are anything BUT logical. I can logically defend my position. You just insult me. Which one of us is rational here?

Mae Absolutely you didn’t do what I did. Of this there can be no doubt. You have expectations and requirements I didn’t have. Your whole attitude is 180 degrees different.

POI Can you please stop. You have no idea what I did. Further, I have already demonstrated that you do not really need to do any of it anyways. Remember Saul of Tarsus?

You told us what you did in clear words. Have you forgotten? You yourself told us so we all know what you did and so I will not stop. I know why God did not answer you and told you. You do not like that answer as you control what choices others can answer your. The truth was not one of the options.

Now do you want to talk about Saul? He told us WHY Jesus appeared to him and had mercy on him. He wasn‘t just lucky. His heart was in the right place and he did NOT have a list of hoops God/Jesus had to jump through. He already believed, for one, and two, being blinded was certainly NOT a response he would have chosen or liked when it happened but he submitted immediately calling Jesus „Lord“ not „servant“ as you essentially are doing. God needs to do your bidding. This attitude must stop. He will not do your bidding. IT would be unkind to start a relationship with you being in charge as you are not in charge. You must surrender. You are asking Hm to surrender instead. This will never work.

Mae I know He told the truth, because I know Him, the One True God.

POI All this response convinces me of, is that (you) are convinced. And I never questioned (your) conviction.

Mae It is a question about earnestly seeking Him.

POI This answer speaks volumes. Are you suggesting I'm not earnest? Further, as I've repeatedly pointed out, Saul of Tarsus.

Jesus never told anyone seeking the Father to go to church, listen to the sermon seriously and pray. That is NOT what he said we need to do to come to know the truth. Those are religious duties that man will approve of, those who see you, but not anything that impresses God. I am only going by what you did.

I have no idea what was in your heart but obviously what you expected did not happen. Surely you admit this. Either you did not do what God requires or you expected a response God does not give.

Mae But as long as you blame Him, they’ll be no answer from Him. But this is pointless.

POI No, I do not blame him any more than I blame any other perceived and/or likely imaginary character. I blame myself for wasting 30 (plus) years talking to myself. But, this could all change in the drop of a hat. Since you are chummy with Him, and winning converts could not be frowned upon by the said almighty, I ask that you ask him to reach me. We know he can do it, if he wants. I ask that you ask him to reach me in a way for which I could no longer deny his presence. I would still have the free will to reject him, (even though I likely wouldn't), and I would definitely no longer be a skeptic/agnostic/atheist or whatever other label.... I'll instead await all the apologetic excuses, as to why you will not.

I am very sure that you must do the steps I told you. You need to recognize that you certainly do blame Him. You need to stop doing so. As long as you demand that God jump through the hoops that you require, He will not do so. You cannot tell him that HE must change and reach you according to what you require. I know you hide behind the statement „God knows what I need (require)“ as though this means since He knows, He must do as you require or you will refuse to believe or obey the teachings of Jesus. You think you are giving Him freedom to act as he chooses but you add the stipulation that God knows what you require and He‘d better do as you require is actually what you are saying.

It needs to be said that I DO NOT DOUBT YOUR EARNESTNESS in wanting God to answer. I do not doubt your sincerity either. But one can be sincere and earnest and still do all the wrong things so that the desired result is not achieved. So please do not think I think you were not earnest nor sincere. I think you were.

[Mae von H]

Hello Mae von H

Thanks to the people who read my stuff to the end. I do not presume that this will happen. There is no point in us 'beating around the bush', on this debate site. You may agree! Do you have that phrase where you are?

Thanks

Do you think your posts reflect your signature? Have you been practicing what you preach? I can point out posts where this is clearly not the case. Something to think about.

Thank you

[POI]

Mae That is not the reason. And my faith is more grounded in logic that your unbelief. Your atheism is deeply embedded in emotion as seen by the personal attacks you engage in. This are anything BUT logical. I can logically defend my position. You just insult me. Which one of us is rational here?

POI Engaging earnestly, in the exact same way as you, for 3 decades, with no result, which later lead to me concluding I'm talking to myself, is quite rationale. Where exactly do you feel I'm 'attacking' you?

Mae You told us what you did in clear words.

POI Then you are ignoring my words. Please see above.

Mae I know why God did not answer you and told you. You do not like that answer as you control what choices others can answer your. The truth was not one of the options.

POI I did everything you did, and maybe even more? I was earnest in my convictions for decades. Just like you are now. The only difference is that God "responded" to you, and not me. Your only response now, is that I was not earnest/honest in my search.

Mae Now do you want to talk about Saul? He told us WHY Jesus appeared to him and had mercy on him. He wasn‘t just lucky. His heart was in the right place......

POI Here we go again....

Mae I have no idea what was in your heart but obviously what you expected did not happen.

POI This is apparently all you got. My heart isn't in it or I'm a liar. Your response echos that of the Mormons. (i.e.) Read the book, ask God if it's true, if "he" answers yes, then you know. If you get no answer at all (or) no as your answer, then you are either not trying hard enough (or) not doing it the right way.

Mae Surely you admit this. Either you did not do what God requires or you expected a response God does not give.

POI Your prior argument was that you need to be seeking him. All your response here suggests is that your 'heart' needs to be in the right place. I doubt Saul was seeking him. My heart was in the right place for decades.

Mae I am very sure that you must do the steps I told you. You need to recognize that you certainly do blame Him. You need to stop doing so. As long as you demand that God jump through the hoops that you require, He will not do so. You cannot tell him that HE must change and reach you according to what you require. I know you hide behind the statement „God knows what I need (require)“ as though this means since He knows, He must do as you require or you will refuse to believe or obey the teachings of Jesus. You think you are giving Him freedom to act as he chooses but you add the stipulation that God knows what you require and He‘d better do as you require is actually what you are saying.

It needs to be said that I DO NOT DOUBT YOUR EARNESTNESS in wanting God to answer. I do not doubt your sincerity either. But one can be sincere and earnest and still do all the wrong things so that the desired result is not achieved. So please do not think I think you were not earnest nor sincere. I think you were.

POI I take it you are not going to ask him to reach me then? He either ignores me or is not really there. You clam he does not ignore, answers your prayer requests, you and he is really there.

[The Nice Centurion]

[Replying to Mae von H in post #148]
Cannot one of you ask him to explain to you how to invent COLD FUSION so to make you able to recreate it in a laboratory as many times you want

Now, THAT would be a talk with the christian god of which no scientist would laugh about

Deal