Prayer

[POI]

For Debate: Is prayer just talking to yourself? If not, why not? Sure, prayer may make one feel satisfied/other, but there is likely no agency, on the other side, facilitating such desired response(s).

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People pray to many differing god(s) and/or other. Statistically speaking, many god(s) and/or other aren't answering, as many of these god(s) and/or other likely do not even exist. Hence, at least in part, many are merely talking to themselves in prayer. If many of the desired result(s) can happen in prayer, without any agency actually responding, because such agency does not exist, then it's quite plausible this is the case for all prayer.

[Wootah]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #25]

We worship because survival is important to us. Renee Girard memetics is worth googling and learning about.

Denial of worshipping is just that denial.

Every time I look to see a response I hope for something good. Rarely do I get it. Mind, talk of 'Survival' immediately translates in my head to 'Fear of death'. If not fear of Hell, but some apologists these days seem to reject Hell. Survival seems to be a desire to evade death and live forever. It's an Instinct that has hagridden humanity from having the bones of their bone-age ancestors under the Floor to some evangelist who badly needed burning at the stake trying to terrify kids with X-rated descriptions of hellfire.

I know 'survival' is important to you, more than to atheists who accept a finite life as almost certain and not a problem anyway and are truly thankful for not having the terror of not earning an afterlife or the laughable foolishness of thinking that for sure the way taught in their local denominational church was the Only way of getting it.

What more? If you think M. Girard had anything worth reading, post it here. Recommending books to us counts no more a than atheists recommending books to you.

Denial of denial of worshipping is just that - denial. Affirmation of worshipping as anything but done to make the worshipper feel good is more than just denial - it is refuted by Believers who have said that prayer is not done for God but for the worshipper. (Prayer and worship are pretty much the same activity) and the religious know (deep down) that prayer does not work, and so they know that worship accomplishes nothing.

That's what I call denial, dried, varnished, framed and hung on the wall.

I'm talking brass tacks. Worship is because survival is important. Do you think child sacrifice happens because people like it? They do it because they are desperate for crops the next year. Idol worships value life in a way I see the West doesn't. Now idol worship is wrong, but not worshipping anything is suicide. It is having no goal.

Girard lecture series:

[POI]

I believe that you believe it. Buy WHY do you believe that when you pray, there exists a god (at all), who also sometimes/always listens?

My main reason to believe is the Bible and that I see things going as told in the Bible.

Conformation bias? Please give examples.

Of course they could say the same. Then the question is, why do they think so, do they have any good argument to keep for example a golden calf as their God, rather than the Bible God. I think Bible God is only one worthy for to be kept as the God. If someone disagrees with that, he is free to do so, but obviously I recommend to have a very good reasons for doing so.

Again, any opposing god(s) believer can think their god(s) exists and is listening to them in prayer. They can use the same argument as you. As to your statement in red, this is a very subjective 'reason'. Your reason also does not rule out the possibility that other god(s) exist. Only that you think they are not worthy. How would you know if any of the countless claimed god(s) you have, or have never examined, are worthy?

[TRANSPONDER]

Response to the videp.
Ok. Do I need to go past the introduction? For myself, NOT following the social expectations was something that came out of my teen years, from preferring astronomy to football, museums to pubs and symphonies to rock.

So accusation of being brainwashed to pursue socially imposed goals doesn't touch me. On a wider scale, yes, society pays far too much attention to getting status to impress others. The point is taken.

But I see no point, still. You just chucked the video at me without explaining the relevance. Is it to eschew worldly things and Follow Christ? Pardon me, worldly things are a far better bet, in the past and today. I don't think much of the Christian gambit of puking on society and the relative paradise it has made for you and me in hopes to make us so despairing and miserable that (it is hoped) a longing for heaven is the only option.

Aside Girard's valid points, the people will not be brainwashed into pursuit of the worthless values of religion, but This philosophical tyro may recommend the things that make us human, ruled by the Golden rule of course, since we may be primates, but we are no longer apes. Mostly.

[POI]

I'm talking brass tacks. Worship is because survival is important. Do you think child sacrifice happens because people like it? They do it because they are desperate for crops the next year. Idol worships value life in a way I see the West doesn't. Now idol worship is wrong, but not worshipping anything is suicide. It is having no goal.

You have YET to provide anything which even begins to refute my standing hypothesis, that prayer is speaking to yourself. Are you going to start offering evidence to the contrary?

[TRANSPONDER]

I'm talking brass tacks. Worship is because survival is important. Do you think child sacrifice happens because people like it? They do it because they are desperate for crops the next year. Idol worships value life in a way I see the West doesn't. Now idol worship is wrong, but not worshipping anything is suicide. It is having no goal.

You have YET to provide anything which even begins to refute my standing hypothesis, that prayer is speaking to yourself. Are you going to start offering evidence to the contrary?

it appears to be the argument of someone who doesn't Get It because they cannot get past Faith in One faith claim being the Idol he worships. He (I suppose it is a he) can only think in terms or worshipping objects of adoration (Idol - quick translate "Any object of worship other than mine") The idea of NOT worshipping any religious icon simply is not understood.

Sure we have aims and desires in this life and the nearest thing I do to Worship is awe at nature and instead of prayer, discovery, which I think is what makes us human - wanting to know. It has no meaning outside of humans just as the Cosmos doesn't care about Beethoven's Ode to joy, but by golly it means something to us, and if it means nothing to the faithful because it isn't worship of God (they can tell themselves it is of course) then it's their loss, not ours.

[Wootah]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #33]

You asked for a link. I want expecting a response. That series is quite long.

What I want you to consider is that people that take life seriously across time are religious people.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to Wootah in post #36]

I think we all take life seriously. The ones who struggle with sorting out the problems of life are lawmakers, and those who puzzle about the 'eternal verities' as the Hitch Hiker's guide to the Galaxy puts it, are philosophers. The religions do not so much address the problem as come up with easy answers - invent a big invisible human that did everything including make morality like a blancmange tipped out of a mould, and do whatever it tells us or else, rather than work out what the good is.

No, religions were never the answer, they only claimed they were.

[1213]

I believe that you believe it. Buy WHY do you believe that when you pray, there exists a god (at all), who also sometimes/always listens?

My main reason to believe is the Bible and that I see things going as told in the Bible.

Conformation bias? Please give examples.

I think these are a good example of things going as told in the Bible:

And I will scatter you among nations, and shall draw out the sword after you, and your land shall become a waste, and your cities shall be a desolation.
Lev.. 26:33
And it shall be when all these things have come on you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you among all the nations where Jehovah your God shall drive you, you shall bring back to your heart these things ; and shall turn back to Jehovah your God and listen to His voice, according to all that I am commanding you day, you and your sons with all your heart, and with all your soul; then Jehovah your God will turn your captivity, and He will have pity on you, and will return and gather you from all the nations where Jehovah your God has scattered you. If you are cast out to the end of the heavens, Jehovah your God shall gather you from there, and He shall take you from there.
Deu 30:1-4

How would you know if any of the countless claimed god(s) you have, or have never examined, are worthy?

Because they have not said anything that would be even near as impressive as what is in the Bible. And for me, they really have nothing.

[TRANSPONDER]

I believe that you believe it. Buy WHY do you believe that when you pray, there exists a god (at all), who also sometimes/always listens?

My main reason to believe is the Bible and that I see things going as told in the Bible.

Conformation bias? Please give examples.

I think these are a good example of things going as told in the Bible:

And I will scatter you among nations, and shall draw out the sword after you, and your land shall become a waste, and your cities shall be a desolation.
Lev.. 26:33
And it shall be when all these things have come on you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you among all the nations where Jehovah your God shall drive you, you shall bring back to your heart these things ; and shall turn back to Jehovah your God and listen to His voice, according to all that I am commanding you day, you and your sons with all your heart, and with all your soul; then Jehovah your God will turn your captivity, and He will have pity on you, and will return and gather you from all the nations where Jehovah your God has scattered you. If you are cast out to the end of the heavens, Jehovah your God shall gather you from there, and He shall take you from there.
Deu 30:1-4

That is rubbish. You can't even tell from the Leviticus quote which country you are talking about. It is too general and unspecific. I had to check the context of the Deuteronomy quote which is in Moab during the conquest. But it could apply to the Northern kingdom, to the Exile or indeed to the Jewish war. To pretend this has any particular Truth in regard to the Jews, and never mind about Gentile Christians is sheer self -delusion. We have to reset our heads not to be offended by the attempt to sell us that as proof of anything.

How would you know if any of the countless claimed god(s) you have, or have never examined, are worthy?

Because they have not said anything that would be even near as impressive as what is in the Bible. And for me, they really have nothing.

The people who believe would not agree with you. So you have nothing, other than your personal preference.

[POI]

I believe that you believe it. Buy WHY do you believe that when you pray, there exists a god (at all), who also sometimes/always listens?

My main reason to believe is the Bible and that I see things going as told in the Bible.

Conformation bias? Please give examples.

I think these are a good example of things going as told in the Bible:

And I will scatter you among nations, and shall draw out the sword after you, and your land shall become a waste, and your cities shall be a desolation.
Lev.. 26:33
And it shall be when all these things have come on you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you among all the nations where Jehovah your God shall drive you, you shall bring back to your heart these things ; and shall turn back to Jehovah your God and listen to His voice, according to all that I am commanding you day, you and your sons with all your heart, and with all your soul; then Jehovah your God will turn your captivity, and He will have pity on you, and will return and gather you from all the nations where Jehovah your God has scattered you. If you are cast out to the end of the heavens, Jehovah your God shall gather you from there, and He shall take you from there.
Deu 30:1-4

I don't see the connection between these vague and generalized statements, as they relate to you believing that when you pray, you are not just talking to yourself?

How would you know if any of the countless claimed god(s) you have, or have never examined, are worthy?

Because they have not said anything that would be even near as impressive as what is in the Bible. And for me, they really have nothing.

I do not think you have read my question. Please re-read the part in bold red. The point being there exists countless god claims, with countless story lines. You will not encounter all the ones presented, nor will you ever encounter the ones (yet or never) to be discovered. And yet, you have likely merely settled on the one in which you were indoctrinated within.