Prayer

[POI]

For Debate: Is prayer just talking to yourself? If not, why not? Sure, prayer may make one feel satisfied/other, but there is likely no agency, on the other side, facilitating such desired response(s).

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People pray to many differing god(s) and/or other. Statistically speaking, many god(s) and/or other aren't answering, as many of these god(s) and/or other likely do not even exist. Hence, at least in part, many are merely talking to themselves in prayer. If many of the desired result(s) can happen in prayer, without any agency actually responding, because such agency does not exist, then it's quite plausible this is the case for all prayer.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to Mae von H in post #89]
Please give an example of how I should be wrong.

You are just naysaying.

That is not a debate!

I gather you cannot give an example of your claim.

Women First

I asked first!

1) No, I asked first in Post 90 !

2) I sayd that Prayer can be auto - suggestive.
Do you deny that?

You want to discuss all the false forms of prayer or real prayer? The false forms go from here to there and all possibilities are there. Can you stick to the real deal or don’t you know about that kind?

North Coreans pray to the Kim family. Do you think this is mre because the regime wants them subordinated or for spiritual advance?

Again false forms or false deities abound. I’m not interested in them. Are you?

3) I then claimed auto - suggestive self - nurturing of cognitive dissonance is main reason for prayer.

Fake forms abound and this is included. Are you opposed to discussing the real or do you think there isn’t any? It’s a real question.

4) You naysaieth. Do you suspect perhaps some supernatural or spiritual gain that comes from prayer?

Since I prayed for a lame woman and she got up and walked, I wouldn’t put it that way. It was physical gain. I’ve seen many material gains including other healings.

5) If so, then it is you who are making the extraordinary claim and so you are the one that has to back up what you say.

First, do you know of prayer to the Father of Jesus Christ or not?

So now, please enlighten us

What do you want? Answers to prayer? Promises fulfilled? Or do you think it’s all self-illusion?

I'm afraid claims of miracle - healings can't be accepted. Even if they were actual events (I've had one or two physical problems suddenly correct themselves because some event redirected my mindset), there's no saying what is doing it. But the situation is that healing prayer as a regular corrective effect is only claimed to work by believers, not shown to work on a reliable basis.

I needn't even comment on 'real'and 'false' prayer. Which is real and which is false is just in the mind of the believers. I suspect the believer, when asked, may name the particular Hindo God her "Community" believes in (when I stayed with a family in Madras, they were Vishnu -worshippers and regarded Shiva-worshippers as enemies) but as likely just "God" aka "My own voice in my own head".

Well of course evidence for God answering isn’t technically allowed by your side. Your whole atheist edifice would crumble. Doesn’t prevent us from enjoying the benefits of special favors, I’m afraid. Your view does prevent you from enjoying them as they “aren’t allowed” in your life. So be it. But We’re not alone. You are.

Playing the Bias -card again, I see. Like there is no bias in seeing 'evidence' of prayer working and ignoring anytime it doesn't - which is evidently more often or prayer rather tha medicine or any other method would be the go -to method, apart from which, ever time I have proposed a test of prayer, it isn't even tried, but excuses are made why they shouldn't even try - because they know it doesn't work.

You last point was very silly. I get even More 'benefits' from what's in life (than you science and human igenuity) and at leastappreciate what they are than misrepresent them as a crummy online advertisement for Biblegod.

But I'm not deluded; you are

[POI]

For Debate: Is prayer just talking to yourself? If not, why not? Sure, prayer may make one feel satisfied/other, but there is likely no agency, on the other side, facilitating such desired response(s).

**********************************

People pray to many differing god(s) and/or other. Statistically speaking, many god(s) and/or other aren't answering, as many of these god(s) and/or other likely do not even exist. Hence, at least in part, many are merely talking to themselves in prayer. If many of the desired result(s) can happen in prayer, without any agency actually responding, because such agency does not exist, then it's quite plausible this is the case for all prayer.

Just a thought, have you ever actually asked people which deity they are addressing in prayer. I work with a Hindu and am going to ask her. The opening post assumption is that there are a great variety like possible sauces on pasta. I wonder how accurate this assumption is.

My question is directed at the target audience. When I ask here in the "Debating Christianity" forum location, it is already implied who I'm asking.

[Mae von H]

For Debate: Is prayer just talking to yourself? If not, why not? Sure, prayer may make one feel satisfied/other, but there is likely no agency, on the other side, facilitating such desired response(s).

**********************************

People pray to many differing god(s) and/or other. Statistically speaking, many god(s) and/or other aren't answering, as many of these god(s) and/or other likely do not even exist. Hence, at least in part, many are merely talking to themselves in prayer. If many of the desired result(s) can happen in prayer, without any agency actually responding, because such agency does not exist, then it's quite plausible this is the case for all prayer.

Just a thought, have you ever actually asked people which deity they are addressing in prayer. I work with a Hindu and am going to ask her. The opening post assumption is that there are a great variety like possible sauces on pasta. I wonder how accurate this assumption is.

My question is directed at the target audience. When I ask here in the "Debating Christianity" forum location, it is already implied who I'm asking.

Except the sentence "people pray to any differing god(s)" shows that Christians are definately NOT the target audience. Christians of all people definately do NOT pray to many different god(s.) How can you have been a Christian at one time and not know this? It is absolutely fundamental. We are not Hindus who DO pray to many differeing god(s) and proudly say so. How can you get that fundamental point so 180 degrees wrong?

[POI]

Mae Except the sentence "people pray to any differig god(s) shows that Christians are definately NOT the target audience.

POI There is a reason I divided this portion, in the OP. This portion of the OP demonstrates that other believers do the same thing as well. The debate question is as follows:

For Debate: Is prayer just talking to yourself? If not, why not? Sure, prayer may make one feel satisfied/other, but there is likely no agency, on the other side, facilitating such desired response(s). This is directed at Christians.

Mae Christians of all people definately do NOT pray to many different god(s.)

POI Of course they don't. They all pray to the believed upon Christian God. The point here was to say that there also exists many differing believed upon god(s). EVEN IF one was correct, most are still mistaken, as many are praying to alternative god(s) which do not exist. You Christians, of course, believe your claimed God is the true God. Hence, you believe they are either talking to themselves, or maybe still talking to your God, while they are mistaking that false god to your God.

[Mae von H]

Mae Except the sentence "people pray to any differig god(s) shows that Christians are definately NOT the target audience.

POI There is a reason I divided this portion, in the OP. This portion of the OP demonstrates that other believers do the same thing as well. The debate question is as follows:

For Debate: Is prayer just talking to yourself? If not, why not? Sure, prayer may make one feel satisfied/other, but there is likely no agency, on the other side, facilitating such desired response(s). This is directed at Christians.

Mae Christians of all people definately do NOT pray to many different god(s.)

POI Of course they don't. They all pray to the believed upon Christian God. The point here was to say that there also exists many differing believed upon god(s). EVEN IF one was correct, most are still mistaken, as many are praying to alternative god(s) which do not exist. You Christians, of course, believe your claimed God is the true God. Hence, you believe they are either talking to themselves, or maybe still talking to your God, while they are mistaking that false god to your God.

Actually you are incorrect on that point as well. You assume you know what we think but we can tell you that this is NOT what we think. It would be better to ask us what we think about others praying to other deities rather than assume you know. Again, you are quite mistaken. That is NOT what we think.

[POI]

Mae Actually you are incorrect on that point as well. You assume you know what we think but we can tell you that this is NOT what we think. It would be better to ask us what we think about others praying to other deities rather than assume you know. Again, you are quite mistaken. That is NOT what we think.

POI Well, isn't this the pot calling the kettle black.

I guess this means when all the others pray to their believed upon god(s), they are not talking to themselves. They are actually talking to their believed upon god(s)?

[Mae von H]

Mae Actually you are incorrect on that point as well. You assume you know what we think but we can tell you that this is NOT what we think. It would be better to ask us what we think about others praying to other deities rather than assume you know. Again, you are quite mistaken. That is NOT what we think.

POI Well, isn't this the pot calling the kettle black.

No, it is not.

I guess this means when all the others pray to their believed upon god(s), they are not talking to themselves. They are actually talking to their believed upon god(s)?

It varys. These matters are not as simple as you assume. But best talk to them and then you might know. How many people who prayed to Hindu gods or Allah have you talked to recently?

[POI]

Mae No, it is not.

POI LOL! Tell that to Transponder, as well. I, myself, will let the readers see.

Mae It varys. These matters are not as simple as you assume. But best talk to them and then you might know. How many people who prayed to Hindu gods or Allah have you talked to recently?

POI In my line of work, I speak to all of them. They all believe they are speaking to their true god(s). But enough with my anecdotal claims, which likely mean nothing to you. You believe you are speaking to the one true god, right? How do you KNOW you are not merely only speaking to yourself in prayer?

[Mae von H]

Mae No, it is not.

POI LOL! Tell that to Transponder, as well. I, myself, will let the readers see.

Mae It varys. These matters are not as simple as you assume. But best talk to them and then you might know. How many people who prayed to Hindu gods or Allah have you talked to recently?

POI In my line of work, I speak to all of them. They all believe they are speaking to their true god(s). But enough with my anecdotal claims, which likely mean nothing to you. You believe you are speaking to the one true god, right? How do you KNOW you are not merely only speaking to yourself in prayer?

What line of work is that? And you are, again, wrong about your experience meaning nothing to me. That is Ts and the general atheist position. When a person's experience disagrees with their position, it is deemed "ancedotal" and discredited. If it agrees, then it is "evidence."

But since you deem personal experience "anecdotal" my personal experience as to how I KNOW that God is answering will likely mean nothing to you. There is probably no way to answer that question that will be of value to you, is there?

[POI]

Mae No, it is not.

POI LOL! Tell that to Transponder, as well. I, myself, will let the readers see.

Mae It varys. These matters are not as simple as you assume. But best talk to them and then you might know. How many people who prayed to Hindu gods or Allah have you talked to recently?

POI In my line of work, I speak to all of them. They all believe they are speaking to their true god(s). But enough with my anecdotal claims, which likely mean nothing to you. You believe you are speaking to the one true god, right? How do you KNOW you are not merely only speaking to yourself in prayer?

What line of work is that? And you are, again, wrong about your experience meaning nothing to me. That is Ts and the general atheist position. When a person's experience disagrees with their position, it is deemed "ancedotal" and discredited. If it agrees, then it is "evidence."

But since you deem personal experience "anecdotal" my personal experience as to how I KNOW that God is answering will likely mean nothing to you. There is probably no way to answer that question that will be of value to you, is there?

I work in the medical field and will leave it there.

Is all you have is your own (anecdotal evidence) that the Bible God actually addresses/answers anyone's prayer?