Prayer

[POI]

For Debate: Is prayer just talking to yourself? If not, why not? Sure, prayer may make one feel satisfied/other, but there is likely no agency, on the other side, facilitating such desired response(s).

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People pray to many differing god(s) and/or other. Statistically speaking, many god(s) and/or other aren't answering, as many of these god(s) and/or other likely do not even exist. Hence, at least in part, many are merely talking to themselves in prayer. If many of the desired result(s) can happen in prayer, without any agency actually responding, because such agency does not exist, then it's quite plausible this is the case for all prayer.

[otseng]

We are all very happy for you if your life is indeed better for believing the Christianity claims.

Have you even thought about the Dogma you are expounding?

Just knock yourself out trying to sell the worthless claims of religion

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[POI]

[Replying to POI in post #11]

Well two things can be true:

The idols are mute and useless mostly.

There may be demons behind them.

I pray to God to give thanks, ask for His strength and wisdom mostly.

How do you know it is not you, who is merely conversing with 'demons', or more likely, just speaking to yourself alone?

Do demons ask you to 'love God and love others as you love yourself'?

More likely they are asking all of us to not pray for a heart like that.

edit: Remember, speaking to yourself is generally beneficial so if that is all we are doing then we should all do it and as a baseline prayer is good.

1. How do you know demons even exist?
2. If you can demonstrate demons do indeed exist, how do you know they are not deceptive enough to earn your trust by merely asking you to do things you would never think they would ask?
3. It's likely you are merely talking to yourself in prayer. Sure, it may be 'beneficial' to some degree or extent, but you are likely fooling yourself to also think some agency, on the other end, is actually present and listening.

1. Have you see the world lately?
2. Greatest trick the devil ever pulled ...
3. Fooling ourselves seems a necessary part of life. You know you are gunna die, but you fool yourself things matter. It may be a matter of choosing your illusion. I sure know my outcomes in life are better now, with my current illusion if that is all it is.

1. Hmm.... Therefore demons?..?.?.
2. You haven't demonstrated demons or the devil exists. Were you planning on doing so, or are you instead just going with rogue assertions here in this debate forum?
3. But knowing we are going to die someday isn't an illusion. However, there's a great chance, that when you pray, and you thinking there exists some agency on the other end listening, is an illusion.

[POI]

...
Well, you first need to verify that there is actually 'someone there' at all. And then, I guess you could assess as to if/why they (may or may not) be listening.

However, if you want to just assume your god is there, couldn't any opposing god believer use this same argument? (i.e.) Hmm, is my god(s) listening to me?

As I said, it is a matter of belief.

I believe that you believe it. Buy WHY do you believe that when you pray, there exists a god (at all), who also sometimes/always listens?

In my opinion it does not matter, if the other gods exist and even listen, I wouldn’t keep them as my God anyway, because I don’t think they are worthy of that.

This does not address my question. Couldn't any opposing god believer use the exact same argument you are using here as well? I'd say they can.

[Wootah]

[Replying to POI in post #22]

Well go with what we know and call it psychology. Many people have demons literal or not most would rather not have them.

Prayer is a way to acknowledge you are not the boss. With that knowledge you can unburden yourself from all the weight we carry when we think we are.

The thing is we do become like our idols. Bare that in mind.

Idol and Id seem related to me. Idolatry is simple worshipping your idol and then - 'I do later'.

So I think it matters who we worship.

[TRANSPONDER]

We are all very happy for you if your life is indeed better for believing the Christianity claims.

Have you even thought about the Dogma you are expounding?

Just knock yourself out trying to sell the worthless claims of religion

Moderator Comment

Please avoid making any personal comments about others.

Please review the Rules.





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Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

Noted. As usual, I intended this as a criticism of the thinking , not of the person - but I'll keep the warning in mind.

[Replying to POI in post #22]

Well go with what we know and call it psychology. Many people have demons literal or not most would rather not have them.

Prayer is a way to acknowledge you are not the boss. With that knowledge you can unburden yourself from all the weight we carry when we think we are.

The thing is we do become like our idols. Bare that in mind.

Idol and Id seem related to me. Idolatry is simple worshipping your idol and then - 'I do later'.

So I think it matters who we worship.

I think it matters more why we worship. What even is worship? Thanks for being alive? For being here? But being here is terrible and only bearable because of a promised afterlife if we believe the right Dogma. Which is what it's about and not about bei ng good persons. That is just another part of the Big Lie - it is not about morality but having the party card.

The instinct is to grovel to idols. Often for bad reasons, like celebrities or political leaders, like we were supposed to do with the old rulers. This is a strong instinct and we must beware of it in religion, where not only the gods are supposed to be worshipped but the popes, Swamis and Ayatollahs.

We can reverence achievers for their achievement but the Religious project their mistakes onto secularists when they mistake fascination with science for a religion, or respect for the top thinkers as some kind of worship.

This is self -accusation as they are projecting their own wrong thinking onto those who don't do that. Science is not a religion, Dawkins is not an atheist pope and Origin of species is not out Holy Book.

[Wootah]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #25]

We worship because survival is important to us. Renee Girard memetics is worth googling and learning about.

Denial of worshipping is just that denial.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #25]

We worship because survival is important to us. Renee Girard memetics is worth googling and learning about.

Denial of worshipping is just that denial.

Every time I look to see a response I hope for something good. Rarely do I get it. Mind, talk of 'Survival' immediately translates in my head to 'Fear of death'. If not fear of Hell, but some apologists these days seem to reject Hell. Survival seems to be a desire to evade death and live forever. It's an Instinct that has hagridden humanity from having the bones of their bone-age ancestors under the Floor to some evangelist who badly needed burning at the stake trying to terrify kids with X-rated descriptions of hellfire.

I know 'survival' is important to you, more than to atheists who accept a finite life as almost certain and not a problem anyway and are truly thankful for not having the terror of not earning an afterlife or the laughable foolishness of thinking that for sure the way taught in their local denominational church was the Only way of getting it.

What more? If you think M. Girard had anything worth reading, post it here. Recommending books to us counts no more a than atheists recommending books to you.

Denial of denial of worshipping is just that - denial. Affirmation of worshipping as anything but done to make the worshipper feel good is more than just denial - it is refuted by Believers who have said that prayer is not done for God but for the worshipper. (Prayer and worship are pretty much the same activity) and the religious know (deep down) that prayer does not work, and so they know that worship accomplishes nothing.

That's what I call denial, dried, varnished, framed and hung on the wall.

[POI]

[Replying to POI in post #22]

Well go with what we know and call it psychology. Many people have demons literal or not most would rather not have them.

Prayer is a way to acknowledge you are not the boss. With that knowledge you can unburden yourself from all the weight we carry when we think we are.

The thing is we do become like our idols. Bare that in mind.

Idol and Id seem related to me. Idolatry is simple worshipping your idol and then - 'I do later'.

So I think it matters who we worship.

I'm sorry, but this response lends nothing to answering my questions(s) about your rationale of "demons", the "devil", or "god". Let's try a different approach. I'm going to issue a hypothesis below:

{start hypothesis} When you are praying/worshipping, you are merely talking to yourself. There exists no such god to listen and/or answer any calls to your prayer/worship. Your use of the word 'psychology' is code for 'praying makes me feel good/satisfied/content/productive. However, there is not really anyone or anything there listening to or hearing me.' {end hypothesis}

I issue this hypothesis above because you again have made no rational attempt in justifying any such god hearing/listening to your prayer requests. All you seem to repeatedly say, is that we need to pray to something/someone -- other than ourselves, even though there might not be anything listening on the other end. Sure, many of us do this, but there exists countless conceived (agencies/other) in which people pray to. Not all of them necessarily exist. But it's also likely that none of these imagined/conceived (agencies/other) exist; and you are merely soothing/satisfying yourself alone in such prayer/worship requests.

1) Both you and I agree you exist.
2) Both and I agree that you commit the act of prayer.
3) Both you and I do not agree as to (whether or not) there actually exists anything listening to your prayers. You say God is there, I say you are talking to yourself.

Please demonstrate your position in 3). Thus far, your argument is... Talking to yourself is therapeutic. Your argument is also, we invent these imaginary agencies to think like we do.

[1213]

I believe that you believe it. Buy WHY do you believe that when you pray, there exists a god (at all), who also sometimes/always listens?

My main reason to believe is the Bible and that I see things going as told in the Bible.

This does not address my question. Couldn't any opposing god believer use the exact same argument you are using here as well? I'd say they can.

Of course they could say the same. Then the question is, why do they think so, do they have any good argument to keep for example a golden calf as their God, rather than the Bible God. I think Bible God is only one worthy for to be kept as the God. If someone disagrees with that, he is free to do so, but obviously I recommend to have a very good reasons for doing so.

[TRANSPONDER]

I believe that you believe it. Buy WHY do you believe that when you pray, there exists a god (at all), who also sometimes/always listens?

My main reason to believe is the Bible and that I see things going as told in the Bible.

This does not address my question. Couldn't any opposing god believer use the exact same argument you are using here as well? I'd say they can.

Of course they could say the same. Then the question is, why do they think so, do they have any good argument to keep for example a golden calf as their God, rather than the Bible God. I think Bible God is only one worthy for to be kept as the God. If someone disagrees with that, he is free to do so, but obviously I recommend to have a very good reasons for doing so.

I see nothing going as tild in the Bible. Oh, sure you can talk of wars and rumours of wars, earthquakes and floods abut that stuff happens anyway. As to other religions (we can take stories of worshipping golden calfs with a packet of salt) on the face of it, the Bible looks more historical - record than Hinduism for instance but give or take the events, the religious overlay looks questionable.

Consider, the Mormon religion is a matter of record, but do you credit the claims of Joseph Smith? Ron Hubbard was around in my lifetime, and we know the story, but it hasn't stopped a very influential religion.

No, the claims of any Holy Book count for no more than any other, even if you can credit the historical basis for it.