Why All the Pageantry?

[POI]

If God wanted to forgive us, why not just forgive us? He's God.

Why clone himself, send that human to earth, and have this god-clone be martyred/murdered to atone for human sin (like a sheep) -- only to have this martyred/murdered clone almost immediately ascend back up to heaven -- (a place of perfect bliss anyways)? Seems like a lot of unnecessary-ness. It also does not really seem like an "ultimate sacrifice" anyhow.

For Debate:

(again) If God wanted to forgive us, why not just forgive us? He's God. If no one 'deserves' God's true grace anyways, then just forgive all. What's with all the extra pageantry?

[1213]

...
Matthew clearly has Joseph living in Judea and doubtless Bethlehem as his domicile, as after the flight to Egypt (which contradicts Luke further) the intention was to go back home to Judea w but he was warned to find somewhere else because Herod's son was now ruling Judea. Thus Joseph goes to live in Nazareth and abandons his Judean home (trust you won't try the "It does not actually use those words" apologetic which is just gross dishonesty, not proper apologetics).

This is an undeniable contradiction of story...

Why would your interpretation be correct, if it makes Bible look contradictory?

The Resurrection (which I regard as the second most contradictory story after the nativities) has the women at the tomb being told that Jesus has risen and to tell the disciples to go and see him in Galilee. Matthew has the women run into Jesus in person on the way to report just to repeat what the angel has already said, but Matthew wasn't the cleverest story - writer.

Matthew 28. 8 "So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9 Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. 10 Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me.”

Now, so far as Luke goes, Cleophas must be there to hear the Marys say what they saw. But according to Luke, when they meet Jesus on the way to Emmaus, they recount the women seeing angels and the disciples going to check the tomb, but no mention of Jesus.

Luke 24. 22 "Moreover, some women of our company amazed us. They were at the tomb early in the morning, 23 and when they did not find his body, they came back saying that they had even seen a vision of angels, who said that he was alive. 24 Some of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but him they did not see.”

The apologetic is that womens' testimony was not valid (it was - if there were two of them) but if Cleophas says they saw angels and heard that Jesus was alive but him (Jesus) they (the disciples) didn't see, that has to contradict Matthew. On all reason, if the women had run into Jesus as Matthew says (never mind John) Cleophas would have said so. That he doesn't means that Luke doesn't know that Matthew had claimed that the women ran into Jesus....

I think the problem here is that you connect wrongly parts of the story.

[TRANSPONDER]

...
Matthew clearly has Joseph living in Judea and doubtless Bethlehem as his domicile, as after the flight to Egypt (which contradicts Luke further) the intention was to go back home to Judea w but he was warned to find somewhere else because Herod's son was now ruling Judea. Thus Joseph goes to live in Nazareth and abandons his Judean home (trust you won't try the "It does not actually use those words" apologetic which is just gross dishonesty, not proper apologetics).

This is an undeniable contradiction of story...

Why would your interpretation be correct, if it makes Bible look contradictory?

The Resurrection (which I regard as the second most contradictory story after the nativities) has the women at the tomb being told that Jesus has risen and to tell the disciples to go and see him in Galilee. Matthew has the women run into Jesus in person on the way to report just to repeat what the angel has already said, but Matthew wasn't the cleverest story - writer.

Matthew 28. 8 "So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9 Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. 10 Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me.”

Now, so far as Luke goes, Cleophas must be there to hear the Marys say what they saw. But according to Luke, when they meet Jesus on the way to Emmaus, they recount the women seeing angels and the disciples going to check the tomb, but no mention of Jesus.

Luke 24. 22 "Moreover, some women of our company amazed us. They were at the tomb early in the morning, 23 and when they did not find his body, they came back saying that they had even seen a vision of angels, who said that he was alive. 24 Some of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but him they did not see.”

The apologetic is that womens' testimony was not valid (it was - if there were two of them) but if Cleophas says they saw angels and heard that Jesus was alive but him (Jesus) they (the disciples) didn't see, that has to contradict Matthew. On all reason, if the women had run into Jesus as Matthew says (never mind John) Cleophas would have said so. That he doesn't means that Luke doesn't know that Matthew had claimed that the women ran into Jesus....

I think the problem here is that you connect wrongly parts of the story.

No. You are in denial. It is clear to anyone willing to look (once it is explained - don'task me why for 2000 years nobody seems to have noticed) that Joseph coming back from Egypt was intending to go back to Judea but was told to go to Galilee and Nazareth was where he picked. But in Luke he already lived there/. I don't mind if you simply refuse to see what's obvious, because it is others who matter, not denialists. And denial rather than any counter argument is all I get from you.

You are also wrong (the same false "Not the same time" apologetic I have seen used to explain why John has no transfiguration) And it is demonstrable to anyone willing to look that there is no valid excuse for Cleophas not mentioning the women meeting Jesus when he says they saw angels and heard Jesus has risen, so that testimony was good enough. No, the go to explanation is, Matthew made it up, and it is by no means the only time he does that. Contradictions, real, actual and demonstrable contradictions, alterations, additions, inventions and falsifications, is what does for Gospel credibility, whether you deny it or not. Because....


Axiom....

once the audience have had a Conjuring Trick explained, they won't ever be fooled by it again. And I think people don't like having been fooled (except for fun and entertainment) and they will get miffed with the people who fooled them and lied to them.

[The Tanager]

The desired goal for a wanna-be Christian is 'salvation'.

Is it possible to "be saved" without having a relationship with Jesus? (yes or no)?

And once you answer the (yes or no) question, please sort out the two conclusions, as I already laid out in red above.

Salvation and a personal relationship are two ways to speak of the same exact thing. So, it’s not possible to be saved without having a personal relationship with God through Jesus’ work in his incarnation, life, death, and resurrection.

A) God did not make us choose a personal relationship with God, which is what God wants, which is the desired goal.

B) God wants us to have a relationship with Him which is the desired goal.

[The Tanager]

What happened to debt between two people being one thing, not two things? Remember, she's the angel here, and I'm the real villain. Her trifling matters of physical and emotional abuse are pittances in the eyes of God, like tiny fractions of a penny, but my resenting those things is the real, horrible, actual, unspeakably evil crime, worth more than I could ever repay.

No, that’s not what I’ve said or what the Bible seems to me to teach.

Remember how you said that if Bob owes Steven $50, and Steven owes Bob $40, Bob can't rightly ask for Steven to forgive his debt unilaterally, decide not to forgive Steven's debt to him, and demand the $40?

I said Bob wouldn’t be acting morally if he did so, yes.

So why can I not ask for that same forgiveness in kind? In other words, for her to stop calling me evil, stop getting priests to call me evil, stop bullying me nonstop and wringing her hands in angelic glee when I finally react because aha there's the grudge oh soooo evil, stop bringing up her pristine righteousness in every conversation I've ever had with her? If she did that, I could probably handle being forced to be ascetic because she needs to sell everything I have for booze money. Some people are ascetic by choice. So even if I couldn't handle it, I call it a reasonable ask - I call it achievable.

The part I can't handle is that she steals, drinks, destroys everything, and that makes her good, because she is the sinner to be forgiven. But the fact that I don't like her attacking me, that makes me evil, because I wish I didn't have to suffer that. In other words, I resent it.

Why do you think I’m saying you shouldn’t receive these things from her? Or that these things make her good? Or that I think you are being evil? That’s not what forgiveness is.

Forgiveness is tied up with not seeking recompense - as in the tale of the unforgiving slave - and forgiveness is also tied up with not harbouring resentment. I am incapable of doing both of those things. If she is around me, stealing everything, making me destitute, I will resent it. That's why I'm not there. If I'm not there, it's easy to be near-Christian, and be happy for her if she steals and drinks and destroys property to her heart's content, and oh how righteous and wonderful she is for doing that. She's putting her needs and wants first, which is what any moral person would have her do, isn't it? They should just forgive her like I do, oh how lucky they are to have such a wonderful person as her, teaching them to be selfless and forgiving. The further I am from the zone of destruction, the easier this is.

I agree that you shouldn’t be there if that is how she continues to act. That’s not required of forgiveness. Christianity doesn’t say she is righteous and wonderful for those actions. No moral person would be okay with her doing those things.

Affect me as in what? Make me do actions? That's saying I don't have free will. Affect me as in, make me impure because I had an evil fantasy? That's closer to the point, isn't it? And it's proving my point about Christianity being a purity philosophy, not an empathy philosophy.

Yes, it will lead to certain actions that you have freely chosen because of the prior choices that affect and form these habits of actions. Once those are formed it is harder to break the cycle, although not impossible. That’s free will. Impure thoughts is not closer to the point. As to what kind of philosophy Christianity is, I’m not sure it’s straight purity or straight empathy.

And, like a boss, it would rather judge the tormented people who fantasise about their abusers facing some sort of justice, than judge itself for creating a society where the idea that some people must simply accept abuse is built in.

Not at all. That’s not the Jesus of the Bible. Christendom surely has done this at times, but not Christianity.

Then why have any Law at all? The Bible could be reduced to those words then.

Have no moral law? Anything goes?

"You're actually in the wrong, because even though you did everything I told you, your heart wasn't in the right place." is what the worst sort of controlling and nasty girlfriend does. If she has even a milligram of maturity in her, she's capable of not getting in a tiff when you do everything she asks, and swallowing it if some new thing upsets her that she never said bothered her before, then telling you about it without getting angry.

In other words, checking boxes, and looking honestly at whether boxes were checked, is how honest and mature people navigate a relationship.

But we didn’t do what God told us. God says trust in me and follow what I say, not what you come up with in your own limited understanding of a very complex reality. The box to check is to trust in God, not figure out what to do and try to do it on your own.

So now you're saying that when Bob wants the $50 he owes forgiven, but he wants the $40 Steven owes him repaid, Steven should get out the two sawbucks and pay him?

Is a sawbuck $20? I think Steven owes Bob nothing, but with the way Bob is going should chalk up the $10 as a gift and then loan him nothing further. If Steven thinks giving Bob another $20 when asked is good for Bob, then consider that a gift instead of a loan as well.

It's really hard when that person brings up the equivalency. Bob might say, "Why won't you loan me money? Do you think I'm not good for it?" and then you can either bring up the past and prove you're holding a grudge, allowing Bob to wallow in his righteousness, or start kicking yourself for not giving him the money in the first place because all you did was dig an extra hole when you're going to have to give him the money anyway.

A grudge is a persistent feeling of ill will or resentment from a past insult or injury. Holding a grudge and saying Bob isn’t good for a loan are not the same thing.

[POI]

The desired goal for a wanna-be Christian is 'salvation'.

Is it possible to "be saved" without having a relationship with Jesus? (yes or no)?

And once you answer the (yes or no) question, please sort out the two conclusions, as I already laid out in red above.

Salvation and a personal relationship are two ways to speak of the same exact thing. So, it’s not possible to be saved without having a personal relationship with God through Jesus’ work in his incarnation, life, death, and resurrection.

A) God did not make us choose a personal relationship with God, which is what God wants, which is the desired goal.

B) God wants us to have a relationship with Him which is the desired goal.

I disagree. I have spoken to many Christians who claim Jesus has never communicated with them. And yet, they still hope/think they may be saved after death.

A) I asked God, but he ignored me (for 3 decades).
B) Then why did he ignore me?

[1213]

No. You are in denial. It is clear to anyone willing to look (once it is explained - don'task me why for 2000 years nobody seems to have noticed) that Joseph coming back from Egypt was intending to go back to Judea but was told to go to Galilee and Nazareth was where he picked. But in Luke he already lived there/. I don't mind if you simply refuse to see what's obvious, because it is others who matter, not denialists. And denial rather than any counter argument is all I get from you.
...

Sorry, I still think you cut-paste incorrectly. I have no reason to accept that the scriptures you are talking are necessary about the exact same moment.

[TRANSPONDER]

No. You are in denial. It is clear to anyone willing to look (once it is explained - don'task me why for 2000 years nobody seems to have noticed) that Joseph coming back from Egypt was intending to go back to Judea but was told to go to Galilee and Nazareth was where he picked. But in Luke he already lived there/. I don't mind if you simply refuse to see what's obvious, because it is others who matter, not denialists. And denial rather than any counter argument is all I get from you.
...

Sorry, I still think you cut-paste incorrectly. I have no reason to accept that the scriptures you are talking are necessary about the exact same moment.

You show that you do not know or deny what's in the bible. It is not about cutting and pasting, though I could do that, but explaining the timeline.

This is how it goes. Let me explain the events of your own Bible to you.

The women arrive dawn Sunday at the tomb. There is an angel (or two) there to explain that Jesus has risen (not in John, though). They run to report to the disciples.
Matthew says they run into Jesus. He tells them to go and tell the disciples that he has risen and he will meet them in Galilee.
They report to the disciples and Cleophas is there to hear their claim that they saw angels who told them that Jesus had risen. Moreover, he is there after the disciples check the tomb was empty and report they did not see Jesus. (John has a different story, but that's what happens when witnesses cannot agree their stories).

It cannot be credibly denied that Cleophas heard that the women had found the tomb empty, had seen angels and heard that Jesus had risen. It is inconceivable that they would not say that they had met Jesus or that Cleophas would not relate that, if he knew of it.

It is a contradiction and valid one and is just one of many that show the resurrection stories were concocted individually and were not grounded in an original story, like the arrest, trial, and crucifixion.

[The Tanager]

I disagree. I have spoken to many Christians who claim Jesus has never communicated with them. And yet, they still hope/think they may be saved after death.

A) I asked God, but he ignored me (for 3 decades).
B) Then why did he ignore me?

There are definitely different ideas about what Christianity is. I'm sharing mine. As to your personal experiences with God (if He exists at all), I cannot speak to that beyond general possibilities. Perhaps He did ignore you. Perhaps He doesn't exist. Perhaps you misunderstood something.

[1213]

...
The women arrive dawn Sunday at the tomb. There is an angel (or two) there to explain that Jesus has risen (not in John, though). They run to report to the disciples.
Matthew says they run into Jesus. He tells them to go and tell the disciples that he has risen and he will meet them in Galilee.
...

I thought I have showed this already, but, for those whose life doesn't depend on Bible being contradictory, this is how one can read the Sunday story without contradictions:

Mark. 16:1 And the sabbath passing, Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Salome, bought spices, so that coming they might anoint Him.
Note! There was two Shabbat days. The Shabbat day of feast of unleavened bread and weekly Shabbat. Apparently after first Shabbat, Friday, spices were prepared and after second Shabbat they were brought to the tomb.
Mark. 16:2 And very early on the first of the week, the sun having risen, they came upon the tomb.
Matt.28:1 But after the sabbaths, at the dawning of the first of the sabbaths, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the grave.
(Mark. 16:3 And they said to themselves, Who will roll away the stone from the door of the tomb for us?)
(Luke 24:1 But on the first of the sabbaths, while still very early, they came on the tomb, carrying spices which they prepared; and some were with them.)
Matt.28:2 And, behold! A great earthquake occurred! For descending from Heaven and coming near, an angel of the Lord rolled away the stone from the door and was sitting on it.
Matt.28:3 And his face was as lightning and his clothing white as snow.
Matt.28:4 And those keeping guard were shaken from the fear of him, and they became as dead.
Note! Apparently, the earthquake and rolling of the stone was seen only by the guards, not the women that vent to the tomb.
Mark. 16:4 And looking up, they saw that the stone had been rolled back; for it was very large.
Luke 24:2 And they found the stone having been rolled away from the tomb.
John:20:1 But on the first of the week, Mary Magdalene came early to the tomb, darkness yet being on it . And she saw the stone had been removed from the tomb.
John:20:2 Then she ran and came to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple whom Jesus loved, and said to them, They took away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they laid Him.
John:20:3 Then Peter and the other disciple went out and came to the tomb.
Luke 24:3 And going in, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus.
Note! Apparently, Mary left the tomb, while other women stayed at the tomb.
Mark. 16:5 And entering into the tomb, they saw a young man sitting on the right, having been clothed in a white robe. And they were much amazed.
Luke 24:4 And it happened, as they were perplexed about this, even behold, two men in shining clothing stood by them.
Luke 24:5 And they becoming terrified, and bowing their faces to the earth, they said to them, Why do you seek the living with the dead?
Matt.28:5 But answering, the angel said to the women, You must not fear, for I know that you seek Jesus who has been crucified.
Matt.28:6 He is not here, for He was raised, as He said. Come, see the place where the Lord was lying.
(Mark. 16:6 But He said to them, Do not be amazed. You seek Jesus the Nazarene who has been crucified. He was raised. He is not here. See the place where they put Him?)
(Luke 24:6 He is not here, but was raised. Remember how He spoke to you, yet being in Galilee,)
Luke 24:7 saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and to be crucified, and the third day to rise again.
Luke 24:8 And they remembered His words.
7 And going quickly say to His disciples that He was raised from the dead. And behold! He goes before you into Galilee. You will see Him there. Behold! I told you.
Mark. 16:7 But go, say to the disciples and to Peter, He goes before you into Galilee. You will see Him there, even as He told you.
Matt.28:8 And going away from the tomb quickly, with fear and great joy, they ran to report to His disciples.
Mark. 16:8 And going out quickly, they fled from the tomb. And trembling and ecstasy took hold of them. And they told no one, not a thing, for they were afraid.
Note!, some think that this means they never told about the matter to anyone ever. If that would be the case, we would not have this story. That is why it is reasonable to think they only didn’t tell on their way about it.
John:20:4 And the two ran together, and the other disciple ran in front more quickly than Peter and came first to the tomb.
John:20:5 And stooping down, he saw the linens lying; however, he did not go in.
John:20:6 Then Simon Peter came following him, and went into the tomb and saw the linens lying.
John:20:7 And the grave cloth which was on His head was not lying with the linens, but was wrapped up in one place by itself.
John:20:8 Therefore, then the other disciple also entered, he having come first to the tomb, even he saw and believed.
John:20:9 For they did not yet know the Scripture, that it was necessary for Him to rise from the dead.
John:20:10 Then the disciples went away again to themselves.
John:20:11 But Mary stood outside at the tomb, weeping. Then as she wept, she stooped down into the tomb.
John:20:12 And she saw two angels in white, sitting one at the head, and one at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.
John:20:13 And they said to her, Woman, why do you weep? She said to them, Because they took away my Lord, and I do not know where they put Him.
John:20:14 And saying these things, she turned backward and saw Jesus standing, and did not know that it was Jesus.
Note! Apparently, the other women had left some other route from the tomb, because didn’t see Peter and May on their way. Also, the disciples that came with Mary, left and Mary stayed alone there for a while.
(Mark. 16:9 And rising early on the first of the week, He first appeared to Mary Magdalene, from whom He had cast out seven demons.)
John:20:15 Jesus said to her, Woman, why do you weep? Whom do you seek? Thinking that it was the gardener, she said to Him, Sir, if you carried Him away, tell me where you put Him, and I will take Him away.
John:20:16 Jesus said to her, Mary! Turning around, she said to Him, Rabboni! (that is to say, Teacher).
John:20:17 Jesus said to her, Do not touch Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father. But go to My brothers and say to them, I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God, and your God.
John:20:18 Mary Magdalene came bringing word to the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that He told her these things.
(Mark. 16:10 That one had gone and reported to those who had been with Him, who were mourning and weeping.)
Mark. 16:11 And those hearing that He lives, and was seen by her, they did not believe.
Mark. 16:12 And after these things, He was revealed in a different form to two of them walking and going into the country.
Matt.28:9 But as they were going to report to His disciples, behold, Jesus also met them, saying, Hail! And coming near, they seized His feet and worshiped Him.
Note! Worship = to kiss the hand, or to kneel and show homage to superior rank, for example high priest.
Matt.28:10 Then Jesus said to them, Do not fear. Go tell your brothers that they may go into Galilee, and there they will see Me.
Luke 24:9 And returning from the tomb, they reported all these things to the Eleven, and to all the rest.
Mark. 16:13 And going, those reported to the rest. Neither did they believe those.
Luke 24:10 And they were Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary mother of James, and the rest with them, who told these things to the apostles.
Luke 24:11 And their words seemed like foolishness to them, and they did not believe them.
Luke 24:12 But rising up, Peter ran to the tomb, and stooping down he saw the linen lying alone. And he went away wondering to himself at what had happened.
Matt.28:11 And they, having gone, behold, some of the guard coming into the city reported to the chief priests all things that occurred.
Matt.28:12 And being assembled with the elders, and taking counsel, they gave enough silver to the soldiers,
Matt.28:13 saying, Say that his disciples came and stole him by night, we being asleep.
Matt.28:14 And if this is heard by the governor, we will persuade him and will make you free from anxiety.
Matt.28:15 And taking the silver, they did as they were taught. And this report was spread by the Jews until today.
Note! Matt. 28:11-15 is a separate story line that seems to have happened as the same time with other events. Apparently guards told what they had witnessed in the city, while many disciples did other things.
Luke 24:13 And, behold, two of them were going on the same day to a village being sixty stadia distant from Jerusalem, which was named Emmaus.
Luke 24:14 And they talked to each other about all these things taking place.
Luke 24:15 And it happened, as they talked and reasoned, coming near, Jesus Himself traveled with them.
Luke 24:16 But their eyes were held so as not to recognize Him.
Luke 24:17 And He said to them, What words are these which you exchange with each other while walking, and are sad of face?
Luke 24:18 And answering, one of them whose name was Cleopas, said to Him, Are you only one who resides in Jerusalem and do not know the things happening in it in these days?
Luke 24:19 And He said to them, What things? And they said to Him, The things concerning Jesus the Nazarene, who was a man, a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people;
Luke 24:20 and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to the judgment of death, and crucified Him .
Luke 24:21 But we were hoping that He is the One going to redeem Israel. But then with all these things, this third day comes today since these things happened.
Luke 24:22 And also some of our women astounded us, having been early at the tomb,
Luke 24:23 and not finding His body, they came saying to have seen a vision of angels also, who say Him to be alive.
Luke 24:24 And some of those with us went to the tomb, and found it so , even as the women also said; but they did not see Him.
Luke 24:25 And He said to them, O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe on all things which the prophets spoke!
Luke 24:26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things, and to enter into His glory?
Luke 24:27 And beginning from Moses, and from all the prophets, He explained to them the things about Himself in all the Scriptures.
Luke 24:28 And they drew near to the village where they were going, and He seemed to be going further.
Luke 24:29 And they constrained Him, saying, Stay with us, for it is toward evening, and the day has declined. And He went in to stay with them.
Luke 24:30 And it happened as He reclined with them, taking the loaf, He blessed, and breaking He gave to them.
Luke 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew Him. And He became invisible from them.
Luke 24:32 And they said to one another, Was not our heart burning in us as He spoke to us in the highway, and as He opened up to us the Scriptures?
Luke 24:33 And rising up in the same hour, they went back to Jerusalem, and they found the Eleven, and those with them, having been gathered,
Luke 24:34 saying, The Lord really was raised and appeared to Simon.
Luke 24:35 And they related the things in the highway, and how He was known to them in the breaking of the loaf.
Matt.28:16 But the eleven disciples went into Galilee, to the mount where Jesus appointed them.
Mark. 16:14 Afterward, as they reclined, He was revealed to the Eleven. And He reproached their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him, having been raised.
(Luke 24:36 And as they were telling these things, Jesus Himself stood in their midst, and said to them, Peace to you!)
(John:20:19 Then it being evening on that day, the first of the sabbaths, and the doors having been locked where the disciples were assembled, because of fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst and said to them, Peace to you.)
Luke 24:37 But being terrified and filled with fear, they thought they saw a spirit.
Matt.28:17 And seeing Him, they worshiped Him. But they doubted.
Luke 24:38 And He said to them, Why are you troubled? And why do reasonings come up in your hearts.
Luke 24:39 See My hands and My feet, that I am He? Feel Me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see Me having.
Luke 24:40 And saying this, He showed them His hands and feet
(John:20:20 And saying this, He showed them His hands and side. Then seeing the Lord, the disciples rejoiced.)
Luke 24:41 But yet they not believing from the joy, and marveling, He said to them, Have you any food here?
Luke 24:42 And they handed a broiled part of a fish to Him, and from a honeycomb.
Luke 24:43 And taking these before them, He ate.
Luke 24:44 And He said to them, These are the words which I spoke to you yet being with you, that must be fulfilled all the things having been written in the Law of Moses, and the Prophets, and the Psalms, concerning Me.
Luke 24:45 Then He opened up their mind to understand the Scriptures,
Luke 24:46 and said to them, So it is written, and so the Christ must suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day. No OT passage
Luke 24:47 And repentance and remission of sins must be preached on His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
Luke 24:48 And you are witnesses of th48 And you are witnesses of these things.
Matt.28:18 And coming up Jesus talked with them, saying, All authority in Heaven and on earth was given to Me.
Mark. 16:15 And He said to them, Going into all the world, preach the gospel to all the creation.
Matt.28:19 Going, then, disciple all nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Matt.28:20 teaching them to observe all things, whatever I commanded you. And, behold, I am with you all the days until the completion of the age. Amen.
Mark. 16:16 The one believing and being baptized will be saved. And the one not believing will be condemned.
Mark. 16:17 And signs will follow to those believing these things: they will cast out demons in My name; they will speak new languages;
Mark. 16:18 they will take up snakes; and if they drink anything deadly, it will in no way hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will be well.
Luke 24:49 And, behold, I send forth the promise of My Father on you. But you sit in the city of Jerusalem until you are clothed with power from on high.
Luke 24:50 He led them out as far as to Bethany. And lifting up His hands, He blessed them.
John:20:21 Then Jesus said to them again, Peace to you. As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.
John:20:22 And saying this, He breathed on them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit.
John:20:23 Of whomever you forgive the sins, they are forgiven to them. Or whomever you may retain, they are retained.
Luke 24:51 And it happened as He blessed them, He withdrew from them and was carried into Heaven.
Mark. 16:19 Then indeed, after speaking to them, the Lord was taken up into Heaven, and sat off the right of God. Psa. 110:1
Luke 24:52 And worshiping Him, they returned to Jerusalem with great joy,
Mark. 16:20 And going out, they preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word by the signs following. Amen.
Luke 24:53 and were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.
John:20:24 But Thomas, one of the Twelve, the one called Twin, was not with them when Jesus came.
John:20:25 Then the other disciples said to him, We have seen the Lord. But he said to them, Unless I see the mark of the nails in His hands, and thrust my finger into the mark of the nails, and thrust my hand into His side, in no way will I believe.
John:20:26 And after eight days, His disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. The door having been locked, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said, Peace to you.
John:20:27 Then He said to Thomas, Bring your finger here and see My hands, and bring your hand and thrust into My side, and be not unbelieving, but believing.
John:20:28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!
John:20:29 Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, Thomas, you have believed. Blessed are the ones not seeing and believing.
John:20:30 Then truly Jesus did many other miracles in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book.
John:20:31 But these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to 1213 in post #179]

I want to give you benefit of doubt (especially as you are such a devoted opponent), but it's hard. On my Other forum some twister of an apologist tried to Fake a case (John contradicts Luke about whether Thomas was there) by posting the Bibletext and saying 'No contradiction'.

It looks too much like you are doing the same as you simply post the text, and suppose you can dismiss the problem by saying 'Two Shabbaths' (which is irrelevant, even if correct) and claiming you explained it before. You explained nothing (1).

Luke even explains that they rested on the day before the First day, Sunday, so all this happened the day following a Saturday Sabbath. You cannot credibly make the women going to the tomb on any day other than dawn Sunday. You cannot credibly pretend that the women ran from the tomb more than once.

You cannot credibly post Matthew's daft story of the angel perching on the rock door like a budgerigar and pretend that explains anything. The women go to the tomb, hear the explanation (He is risen) and run off to the disciples, meeting Jesus on the way. In Luke's account (and John's) no Jesus. Explain or excuse this.

Tell us, we are agog, how does Two Shabboths get over three or four contradictory accounts of the One event of the women going to the tomb?

While you're at it, care to explain how I incorrectly cut and pasted or compared two different events when the events of the nativities (specifically whether Joseph intended to return to Judea or to Nazareth) contradicted?

(1) I'll give you every chance. Since you say you explained before, link or paste or repeat it here so we all know what your explanation is.

P.s I have laid a bear trap in there. you probably won't fall in, but let's see....