Is being Transgender a choice?

[AgnosticBoy]

I'm of the opinion that gender expression is a result of social conditioning. I know I used the word "choice" in the title, but that's only because people tend to associate behavior that can be changed or conditioned as being a "choice" (borrowing from the debate on born this way vs. choice).

In this thread, I want to focus on being transgender. Based on my above opinion, I also believe that being transgender is also a result of social conditioning (i.e. childhood experiences, what they learn from society, etc). If I'm right then I think that the recent focus on transgenderism in the media, in Hollywood, in schools, could lead some children to become transgender. And there is nothing wrong with that.

I also bring these points up because when some parents complain about their kids learning about transgenderism in school, the reaction is that it won't impact (some say "groom" ) the child into becoming transgender. If my view is correct, I think the pro-trans crowd should acknowledge that it can potentially influence children AND there's nothing wrong with that.

For Debate
1. Is being transgender a result of social conditioning?
2. Edit: Removed. Teaching kids about gender identity can be a separate thread.

[Miles]

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So what evidence do you have for attributing social conditioning as reason for gender expression?

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[AgnosticBoy]

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So what evidence do you have for attributing social conditioning as reason for gender expression?

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There is a lack of consensus. That, and it isn't talked about like sexual orientation, which is more established as not being a conditioned behavior.

Like here, no talks about it being genetic or rooted only in biology (a product of nature or born this way)...

Why are some people transgender?
There is no single explanation for why some people are transgender. The diversity of transgender expression and experiences argues against any simple or unitary explanation. Many experts believe that biological factors such as genetic influences and prenatal hormone levels, early experiences, and experiences later in adolescence or adulthood may all contribute to the development of transgender identities.

Source: APA

[AgnosticBoy]

Based on further research, I will amend my opinion in the OP to being that social conditioning is only a factor for gender identity, and that it effects some more than others.

1. Is being transgender a result of social conditioning?

I think people just assume that there is a strong case for transgenderism to be a product of nature, and others may want that to be the case for political and moral considerations. From the articles I've read, which are mostly studies comparing brain structure of transgender w/ cisgender, I can say that the evidence is inconclusive. Different studies have different results, with some finding similarities between the brain structures of trans women and biological males and others finding only minor similarities. One researcher concluded that some transgender people have a "unique kind of brain".

Even if we go down the route of transgender being nature that wouldn't help explain why some go through more than one change in their gender identity through their lifetime. That wouldn't add up if gender identity is determined at birth or just during the early years. Here's one article that makes that point...

Lastly, the continued push for the bioessentialist model wrongly and inevitably delegitimizes many transgender or nonbinary individuals’ experiences. There is a privileged transgender narrative in society: one that fits the medical, historical and academic expectations of what transitioning entails. This acceptable transgender narrative includes a linear transition (from social to hormonal and finally to surgical) and a binary transition (from male to female or female to male). This narrative fails to capture the reality of transgender or nonbinary (TGNB) experiences, however. The paths people take to their authentic gender identity are as numerous as any other component of an individual's story.

-Scientific American

As for evidence of gender identity being a product of social conditioning, I don't have direct evidence of that but that is a common understanding in science. There is no dispute about gender roles being a product of society, but how does that impact gender identity?

Following a brief description of views on gender identity from the perspectives of humanistic social science, sociology, and psychology,...
Through a combination of personal and sociostructural factors, people construct self-conceptions of gender, which influence gender-related conduct through the motivational and self-regulatory processes associated with gender identity. A broad range of social influences including parents, peers, the media, and other social systems contribute to the development of gender conceptions and to the self-regulatory processes linked to them.

Source: Bussey, K. (2011). Gender Identity Development. In: Schwartz, S., Luyckx, K., Vignoles, V. (eds) Handbook of Identity Theory and Research. Springer, New York, NY. https://doi.org/10.1007/978-1-4419-7988-9_25 or refer here.

Here's from the APA on the same social aspect of gender...

Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviors, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for boys and men or girls and women. These influence the ways that people act, interact, and feel about themselves.

The number of parents that are raising kids in a gender-neutral way is increasing. I'd like to see how that impacts gender identity!

[Clownboat]

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So what evidence do you have for attributing social conditioning as reason for gender expression?

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Not evidence, but here we go...
A friend of mine has 4 children. Three so far are transgender/non binary. (The 4th is 7-8 yrs old, so not being included even though the writing is on the wall). (They were all born as biological females by the way). One has gone from non-binary to being a boy and now back again to non-binary.

Being an odds guy, what are the odds that 3 out of 3 all have gender expression issues? This suggest that social conditioning may be at play, but I do not pretend to know, just considering the odds game.

[LittleNipper]

I am of the firm belief that unless an individual has dual sexual organs (which would be a physical issue) that such a consideration is purely a social and or a psychological concern. Nature physically produced a male or a female (sexually) and all other concerns are contrary to what is obviously visual. I am of the conviction that with Christ Jesus anyone can feel comfortable in their own skin.

[Miles]

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So what evidence do you have for attributing social conditioning as reason for gender expression?

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Not evidence, but here we go...
A friend of mine has 4 children. Three so far are transgender/non binary. (The 4th is 7-8 yrs old, so not being included even though the writing is on the wall). (They were all born as biological females by the way). One has gone from non-binary to being a boy and now back again to non-binary.

Being an odds guy, what are the odds that 3 out of 3 all have gender expression issues? This suggest that social conditioning may be at play, but I do not pretend to know, just considering the odds game.

I assume you're discounting a genetic component altogether. If this is true, why?

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[Purple Knight]

If I'm right then I think that the recent focus on transgenderism in the media, in Hollywood, in schools, could lead some children to become transgender. And there is nothing wrong with that.

Imagine if you reversed this, though. Some stimulus could lead children to become cisgender and there's nothing wrong with that.

In our current era there's a difference and that's pure exposure. Imagine hoping your kid becomes a sports-obsessed jock, so you hide all nerdy things from him. All you expose him to is sports. That might have been par for the course as far as indoctrinating people into cisgenderism, until recently.

But what if the exposure was all there already, and some new television show proved that in surveys, people watching it as kids were 20% likelier to grow up cisgender? Trans advocates would see this as surely being somehow oppressive of the true self. I might even agree with them. Note the "as kids" part. Kids are impressionable. And by that I sort of mean, kids are dumb. They tend to absorb and regurgitate whatever morals people teach them. So if something is changing what they end up as, before they have that full-fledged self developed, and the ability to filter and then object to things that don't suit them, I would say there's a case for their personality being hijacked, and if that's a bad thing then we need to not do it, in either direction.

It makes it kind of... not a choice.

We want it to be a choice.

So people have the opportunity to follow their true selves.

[AgnosticBoy]

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So what evidence do you have for attributing social conditioning as reason for gender expression?

.

Not evidence, but here we go...
A friend of mine has 4 children. Three so far are transgender/non binary. (The 4th is 7-8 yrs old, so not being included even though the writing is on the wall). (They were all born as biological females by the way). One has gone from non-binary to being a boy and now back again to non-binary.

Being an odds guy, what are the odds that 3 out of 3 all have gender expression issues? This suggest that social conditioning may be at play, but I do not pretend to know, just considering the odds game.

What I'd want to know is how they were raised. It brings to mind the article on the gender-neutral parenting style that I posted towards the end of my last post. I think it would be reasonable to expect kids raised in that way to behave differently than kids raised with one type of gender role. My thinking is how would kids raised in a gender-neutral environment act out gendered behavior if no one teaches it to them? But the article mentions that such parenting styles have not been studied enough to draw conclusions on that matter.

But what also gets me thinking that being transgender is not a matter of nature, or at least not in all cases, is that the APA article I cited in post #3, says that people can be transgender for different reasons. Imagine the APA saying that people can be heterosexual or homosexual for different reasons? One person for this reason, another for that reason. I doubt you'd ever hear that since it is more established that sexual orientation is mainly a product of nature.

[AgnosticBoy]

If I'm right then I think that the recent focus on transgenderism in the media, in Hollywood, in schools, could lead some children to become transgender. And there is nothing wrong with that.

Imagine if you reversed this, though. Some stimulus could lead children to become cisgender and there's nothing wrong with that.

In our current era there's a difference and that's pure exposure. Imagine hoping your kid becomes a sports-obsessed jock, so you hide all nerdy things from him. All you expose him to is sports. That might have been par for the course as far as indoctrinating people into cisgenderism, until recently.

But what if the exposure was all there already, and some new television show proved that in surveys, people watching it as kids were 20% likelier to grow up cisgender? Trans advocates would see this as surely being somehow oppressive of the true self. I might even agree with them. Note the "as kids" part. Kids are impressionable. And by that I sort of mean, kids are dumb. They tend to absorb and regurgitate whatever morals people teach them. So if something is changing what they end up as, before they have that full-fledged self developed, and the ability to filter and then object to things that don't suit them, I would say there's a case for their personality being hijacked, and if that's a bad thing then we need to not do it, in either direction.

It makes it kind of... not a choice.

We want it to be a choice.

So people have the opportunity to follow their true selves.

Excellent scenario! That point of mine follows from a more basic point that transgenderism doesn't have to be a product of nature in order for it to be good or accepted by society. That means even if it is a choice or something that is socially conditioned, then it can still be acceptable. The conclusions of researchers that it causes no harm still holds true no matter its cause. I found some good insight on that point:

This urge to find a biological explanation for the existence of trans, and, more generally, LGBTQ, folks was born out of the need to confront the harmful discourse trumpeted by some Christian Right organizations that being gay or transgender is a sinful choice people make.

The search for a biological cause of transness—also known as “biological essentialism”—may be well-intentioned, but it is a dangerous path that leaves little room for a real understanding of gender and gender identity.

An individual should not need to justify their gender identity any more than someone would need to justify their eye color. While intriguing and often well-intentioned, the continued search for a biological basis of transness needs to be reconsidered and possibly ended altogether. At the very least, proponents of this search need to supplement it with vocal and ardent messages that use of this research to assess someone’s true “transness” is an error that robs them of their autonomy and authentic identity.

- Scientific American
[emphasis added]

So if we can accept that transgenderism can be socially conditioned, and those that have been impacted by that can lead good lives, then I move from that to also conclude that teaching kids about it would also be harmless, even if they are impacted by it. They could live the same good lives that others who came out later on in their lives would live. However, you bring up a point about hijacking the kids personality, which I assume is the same as "pushing" it on children. The way I see it though is that kids will get exposed to it either way. I can agree with you in that I wouldn't want my kid being deliberately pushed towards something without my approval, especially if it conflicts with how I want to raise my child. Ideally, I'd want kids to at least learn the facts, learn about different lifestyles. The alternative I fear is doing what Florida governor Ron DeSantis is criticized of which is trying to eliminate any topic or discussion of LGBT in elementary schools.