Is being Transgender a choice?

[AgnosticBoy]

I'm of the opinion that gender expression is a result of social conditioning. I know I used the word "choice" in the title, but that's only because people tend to associate behavior that can be changed or conditioned as being a "choice" (borrowing from the debate on born this way vs. choice).

In this thread, I want to focus on being transgender. Based on my above opinion, I also believe that being transgender is also a result of social conditioning (i.e. childhood experiences, what they learn from society, etc). If I'm right then I think that the recent focus on transgenderism in the media, in Hollywood, in schools, could lead some children to become transgender. And there is nothing wrong with that.

I also bring these points up because when some parents complain about their kids learning about transgenderism in school, the reaction is that it won't impact (some say "groom" ) the child into becoming transgender. If my view is correct, I think the pro-trans crowd should acknowledge that it can potentially influence children AND there's nothing wrong with that.

For Debate
1. Is being transgender a result of social conditioning?
2. Edit: Removed. Teaching kids about gender identity can be a separate thread.

[Purple Knight]

We live in a society where everyone wants special rights, but they're given on a basis of need. Everyone says that they have the need. That's the reason someone would have to justify their sexuality.

I have no issue with people who wish to live as the opposite of their genetic sex. The sticking point for me in the issue of gender ideology is the insistence that trans women are women. They are not. Sexual reproduction evolved as a binary process where male gametes unite with female ova to produce offspring. We can trace that back for millions of years. At no point has it been possible for an organism to choose its sex and reproduce according to that decision.

Mammals, no, not so much. And I support your right to use this definition. Where I disagree is societal privileges. I don't think anyone should have them on the basis of sex. Biological females are physically weaker and less aggressive. So are some males. They're just going to have to accept that this puts them at a disadvantage.

None of us can have everything that we might want. That's just a fact of life. There is no hatred involved in any of that no matter how much that rhetoric gets tossed around!

For everything else, people seem to agree, just not for gender. I know a lot of biological females who only want to be runway models. They are not tall enough (petite starts at about 5'10'') and their frames aren't thin enough. They would starve to death before they looked like they belonged in a real Paris runway show.

Now, here's the thing... we kind of already live in a post-scarcity society. If you're disabled, if you really can't do something, no problem, the government will pick up the slack. Simply being treated as if you have that ability will solve some of the anguish, and arguably, in a post-scarcity society, it will eliminate all of the anguish.

But nobody can force me to say someone is a runway model when they are not. There are fake runway models now: Those fat acceptance shows. Well I don't accept it. And it's mean. And it's selfish. And there's absolutely not a good reason for it. I am inflicting pain, gaining no benefit to anyone, and I'm probably causing suicides. But at the end of the day, I'm allowed to think what I want and have my own opinions. I'm not terribly attached to this philosophy of government, and if it changes, so be it. But in a society that holds equality as highest priority, that would mean it would have to change for everyone. Until then, the right to one's own opinions applies, because it is a right for some, therefore, in a society where equality is paramount, it is a right for everyone.

[oldbadger]

But nobody can force me to say someone is a runway model when they are not. There are fake runway models now: Those fat acceptance shows. Well I don't accept it. And it's mean. And it's selfish. And there's absolutely not a good reason for it.

I don't watch fashion shows and have no opinion about fashion model appearances, but clearly many people who do take notice are reacting very positively to 'plus size' fashion magazines and models or there would not be so many........ for example a size 16 woman might make more purchases if she sees clothing modelled by women of her own size. It could be that the women with more money for purchases are a bit older and less thin....... in the clothes market money talks, I expect. And where very tall and thin models might once have been all the rage in the fashion world it might be that people want reality in fashion demonstrations now rather than false dreams?

I am inflicting pain, gaining no benefit to anyone, and I'm probably causing suicides. But at the end of the day, I'm allowed to think what I want and have my own opinions.

Of course you are..... what you think is entirely up to you, and I don't expect that any 'plus-size' models will mind, either way.

I'm not terribly attached to this philosophy of government, and if it changes, so be it. But in a society that holds equality as highest priority, that would mean it would have to change for everyone. Until then, the right to one's own opinions applies, because it is a right for some, therefore, in a society where equality is paramount, it is a right for everyone.

Equality of opportunity and security for all is a brilliant policy, imo. For instance, I remember when disabled people couldn't get about very easily at all, but easier access to travel, shopping and so many services has changed their lives so much. I do value living in a community which does its best to raise living standards for all.

[Kylie]

Evidence sugests that the brains of trans people are closer to being like the brains of their identified gender rather than their biological gender. In other words, a trans man's brain is more like the brain of a man than the brain of a woman. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 112351.htm

[brunumb]

Evidence sugests that the brains of trans people are closer to being like the brains of their identified gender rather than their biological gender. In other words, a trans man's brain is more like the brain of a man than the brain of a woman. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 112351.htm

In this study, Dr. Julie Bakker from the University of Liège, Belgium, and her colleagues from the Center of Expertise on Gender Dysphoria at the VU University Medical Center, the Netherlands, examined sex differences in the brain activation patterns of young transgender people. The study included both adolescent boys and girls with gender dysphoria and used magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scans to assess brain activation patterns in response to a pheromone known to produce gender-specific activity. The pattern of brain activation in both transgender adolescent boys and girls more closely resembled that of non-transgender boys and girls of their desired gender.

It was also shown in a study that the majority of boys with gender dysphoria, when left to go through puberty without intervention, turned out to just be gay males. Perhaps the study you referred to merely identified differences in brain activity between straight and homosexual individuals.

[brunumb]

Here is another view on the transitioning of young people. This is the area that gives most concern to people, not transgenderism in itself.

Consultant psychiatrist and medical psychotherapist, Dr Az Hakeem says that homophobic parents are encouraging their children to transition and explains the 'youth subculture' that he sees as trans identity.

[Purple Knight]

I am inflicting pain, gaining no benefit to anyone, and I'm probably causing suicides. But at the end of the day, I'm allowed to think what I want and have my own opinions.

Of course you are..... what you think is entirely up to you, and I don't expect that any 'plus-size' models will mind, either way.

No, the models won't mind at all. The ones committing suicides are the ones who never had the chance to be worshiped for how they look. Ironically they're committing suicides because they're size 8, rather than size 00, while the size 16's go on parade, and get their stamped, laminated, "officially beautiful" licenses at the end of the catwalk, which I don't mind them having. To me it's obviously play-pretend, but oddly, in our blind-sheep-leading-blind-sheep society, half the men have bought it too, and the fat models get sex, and everyone is happy and better off without me having to do or pretend anything. Win-win.

But the size 8's are killing themselves off because of me and people like me. And our society says, this is okay, I'm not required to pretend I think size 8 is acceptable when I don't, and it doesn't matter how many people it kills. I get all the mean jokes I want. Sometimes people say it's mean, and it is. Nobody has ever mobbed me or excluded me from society. And here's what I do when I see that I have some right that gives me some benefit: I defend it for others. Should I not do this?

So why does society want to force Brunumb to pretend he thinks a transgender woman is a woman, when he doesn't? The dictionary never had this kind of power before. People were free to use words as they liked. This has never been about science. It's about language. The word fat isn't a scientific term, and neither is the word woman.

This is the kind of arbitrary mob rule I'm against, and why I think tyranny is better. I don't think the mob should decide that it's okay for fat girls to kill themselves and that's just fallout from my freedom which is more important, but if trans people do it, we have to police everybody's speech. I believe rights are for everyone, not just for the popular group everyone cares about. And if you can't extend that right, either admit you do not want an equal society, or you do not have that right and nobody should defend it for you, because they'd just be defending your privilege. If they also want an unequal society, they should defend their privilege, not yours, and if they want an equal society, they should not defend privilege for anyone.

Equality of opportunity and security for all is a brilliant policy, imo. For instance, I remember when disabled people couldn't get about very easily at all, but easier access to travel, shopping and so many services has changed their lives so much. I do value living in a community which does its best to raise living standards for all.

Nobody forced people to refer to the crippled in any particular way, and when they had suggestions, it never overwrote anybody else's identity. If you want handicapped instead of crippled, no problem. If you wand disabled instead of handicapped, no problem. If you want person with a disability instead of disabled, no problem. If they'd ever started referring to themselves as able-bodied, because all bodies can be able, it would have caused some confusion. If they'd started claiming people were intolerant and hateful for wanting able-bodied to only refer to the non-crippled, it would have caused the same sort of political scuffle we see here.

[brunumb]

So why does society want to force Brunumb to pretend he thinks a transgender woman is a woman, when he doesn't?

In today's society you could be accused of hate speech and even cancelled for mis-naming someone (it's brunumb) and assuming their preferred pronouns. Never fear Purple Knight, I don't give a fig actually.

[Purple Knight]

So why does society want to force Brunumb to pretend he thinks a transgender woman is a woman, when he doesn't?

In today's society you could be accused of hate speech and even cancelled for mis-naming someone (it's brunumb) and assuming their preferred pronouns. Never fear Purple Knight, I don't give a fig actually.

See everyone??!! He's forcing me to NOT capitalise the first letter of a proper noun!! AHHHH!!!

[brunumb]

So why does society want to force Brunumb to pretend he thinks a transgender woman is a woman, when he doesn't?

In today's society you could be accused of hate speech and even cancelled for mis-naming someone (it's brunumb) and assuming their preferred pronouns. Never fear Purple Knight, I don't give a fig actually.

See everyone??!! He's forcing me to NOT capitalise the first letter of a proper noun!! AHHHH!!!

What force has been applied Purple Knight? Anyway, I'm just highlighting the tactics used by activists to get people to comply with their demands.

[oldbadger]

No, the models won't mind at all. The ones committing suicides are the ones who never had the chance to be worshiped for how they look. Ironically they're committing suicides because they're size 8, rather than size 00, while the size 16's go on parade, and get their stamped, laminated, "officially beautiful" licenses at the end of the catwalk, which I don't mind them having. To me it's obviously play-pretend, but oddly, in our blind-sheep-leading-blind-sheep society, half the men have bought it too, and the fat models get sex, and everyone is happy and better off without me having to do or pretend anything. Win-win.

Have you researched suicide statistics and causes?
I don't think many models walk on catwalks now, some do but television, internet and magazine marketing and sales use most, I expect.
Modelling is not so much pretend as very big business, if a seller can place the right people in the right clothing then it can fuel huge business with many employments.
Many men are really switched on by plus size women, plus sized women can do really well for themselves, so it's not all pretense, you know.

But the size 8's are killing themselves off because of me and people like me. And our society says, this is okay, I'm not required to pretend I think size 8 is acceptable when I don't, and it doesn't matter how many people it kills. I get all the mean jokes I want. Sometimes people say it's mean, and it is. Nobody has ever mobbed me or excluded me from society. And here's what I do when I see that I have some right that gives me some benefit: I defend it for others. Should I not do this?

Have you researched 'size 8 suicides?

So why does society want to force Brunumb to pretend he thinks a transgender woman is a woman, when he doesn't? The dictionary never had this kind of power before. People were free to use words as they liked. This has never been about science. It's about language. The word fat isn't a scientific term, and neither is the word woman.

Does it? I don't think that we field thought police, but there are laws against speech and actions which victimise, harass and incite crime.

This is the kind of arbitrary mob rule I'm against, and why I think tyranny is better. I don't think the mob should decide that it's okay for fat girls to kill themselves and that's just fallout from my freedom which is more important, but if trans people do it, we have to police everybody's speech. I believe rights are for everyone, not just for the popular group everyone cares about. And if you can't extend that right, either admit you do not want an equal society, or you do not have that right and nobody should defend it for you, because they'd just be defending your privilege. If they also want an unequal society, they should defend their privilege, not yours, and if they want an equal society, they should not defend privilege for anyone.

Some speech has always been policed (UK) as described above. But if transphobes or any other fanatics cannot control their speech and actions then they probably need some help. But they can think what they want.

Nobody forced people to refer to the crippled in any particular way, and when they had suggestions, it never overwrote anybody else's identity. If you want handicapped instead of crippled, no problem. If you wand disabled instead of handicapped, no problem. If you want person with a disability instead of disabled, no problem. If they'd ever started referring to themselves as able-bodied, because all bodies can be able, it would have caused some confusion. If they'd started claiming people were intolerant and hateful for wanting able-bodied to only refer to the non-crippled, it would have caused the same sort of political scuffle we see here.

Where I live we don't use words like crippled, defective etc etc, we mostly use 'disabled'. You and I will have abilities and you and I will have disabilities, it's the same for everybody....... it's probably a good idea to become empathetic if you can.