So what would make a secular scientist believe in GOD?

[LittleNipper]

Presented here, so that we may have a place to start is one biochemist's (Dr, Sy Garte) journey from staunch atheist to firm believer: So, why are you a believer, or what would you need to become a believer in some Creator GOD.

[boatsnguitars]

Presented here, so that we may have a place to start is one biochemist's (Dr, Sy Garte) journey from staunch atheist to firm believer: So, why are you a believer, or what would you need to become a believer in some Creator GOD.

https://peacefulscience.org/articles/sy ... urrection/

Reading his story is like it's cut and pasted from every other religious zealots diary. It's the classic "Believe me, because I didn't believe, but now I do - buy my book!"

He says he saw Jesus in a dream after reading the Bible the second time through. Clearly he was priming himself to become religious. The fact that he's a scientist is unimportant to the story.

It's a big nothingburger, but I imagine many young Christians see this as a big deal. That one guy became religious - as if it's an argument for God.

He had a dream and feelings. Hardly compelling.

You remind me of the story of the rich man and Lazarus told by Jesus in Luke Chapter 16:19-21

“There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day.
20 And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores,
21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried,
23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’
25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’
27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house—
28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’
29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’
30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’
31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’ ”

What Jesus seem to be indicating is that if someone turns his nose up at the Word of GOD he is as good as in hell already. There's nothing that will convince him...

So why don't you believe in Allah? Seems you've had all the Prophets available - wait, what? You don't believe them? That's funny, same for me with your funny religious story.

And, note that this story is like the other thread we have going: It talks about something we need to imagine happened - since we don't know what happened to the rich man after he died. We have to imagine he spoke with Abraham, and in Hell, etc. (Which, BTW, argues for a physical Hell, despite many Christians claiming there isn't....)

It's the "Imagine you met God after you died... would you believe"? The problem is, it's just a story. It might as well have Elves and Unicorns in it.

Yet, there are some people in this world who fall for this kind of simplistic tale as if it's meaningful. As if it has persuasive power.

It's also super rich. It's exactly what you'd expect from a religion that can't offer evidence: "You want evidence? No! That's exactly why our religion is so true! It's the opposite expectation! Asking for proof is evil! You have to take it on Faith!"

Imagine the poor souls who fall for this weak sauce....

[LittleNipper]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #11]

One would only have to read about Mohammed. He was involved with the Quran around 610 - 632 AD. This was years after the Bible was sealed with the closing of the book of Revelations around 95AD. I place the Gnostic texts, the Quran, and the Book of Mormon in the very same light. They are not inspired; however, they may contain inspired references from the Bible in an effort to gain validity.

[The Nice Centurion]

[Replying to LittleNipper in pot #1]
Uh . . . Give him a Chick Tract to read!

Surely he will believe at once!

[The Nice Centurion]

So why don't you believe in Allah? Seems you've had all the Prophets available - wait, what? You don't believe them? That's funny, same for me with your funny religious story.

And, note that this story is like the other thread we have going: It talks about something we need to imagine happened - since we don't know what happened to the rich man after he died. We have to imagine he spoke with Abraham, and in Hell, etc. (Which, BTW, argues for a physical Hell, despite many Christians claiming there isn't....)

If I were the great theological author Sir Jack Chick, I would say now: "The better part of Hell will be filled with Christians who claimed there isn't one!"

Imagine the poor souls who fall for this weak sauce....

If I were the great theological author Sir Jack Chick, I would say now: "Do not smear sauce on my noble and informative Tracts!"

[The Nice Centurion]

[Replying to LittleNipper in post #1]

Dont know if he was a secular scientist or whatever, but lets not forget that "Raving Atheist", founder of forum of same name turned to "Raving Theist" years back!
http://ravingatheists.com/forum/forumdi ... 24082&f=24

[The Nice Centurion]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #11]

One would only have to read about Mohammed. He was involved with the Quran around 610 - 632 AD. This was years after the Bible was sealed with the closing of the book of Revelations around 95AD. I place the Gnostic texts, the Quran, and the Book of Mormon in the very same light. They are not inspired; however, they may contain inspired references from the Bible in an effort to gain validity.

Meaning you suspect that Moroni and the other Nephite Prophets lied when they took the effort of inscribing the Golden Plates in Reformed Egyptian?
Then you must explain why all this prophets worked so hard only for a lie!

You also think Mohammed thought up himself the holy Quran?
But if you really think that you have to explain why in this case the Archangel Gabriel who appeared to him in a cave, as a historical fact, would appear to a liar.
And even in this case: What then did the Archangel Gabriel teach Mohammed? Stephensons "Treasure Island"?

[LittleNipper]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #11]

One would only have to read about Mohammed. He was involved with the Quran around 610 - 632 AD. This was years after the Bible was sealed with the closing of the book of Revelations around 95AD. I place the Gnostic texts, the Quran, and the Book of Mormon in the very same light. They are not inspired; however, they may contain inspired references from the Bible in an effort to gain validity.

Meaning you suspect that Moroni and the other Nephite Prophets lied when they took the effort of inscribing the Golden Plates in Reformed Egyptian?
Then you must explain why all this prophets worked so hard only for a lie!

You also think Mohammed thought up himself the holy Quran?
But if you really think that you have to explain why in this case the Archangel Gabriel who appeared to him in a cave, as a historical fact, would appear to a liar.
And even in this case: What then did the Archangel Gabriel teach Mohammed? Stephensons "Treasure Island"?

All what prophets? The Mormon founder Joseph Smith became the Nauvoo Legion, militia commander, and was styled the Lieutenant General. As such, he controlled by far the largest body of armed men in Illinois. Mohammed wanted to combine the Jews and the Christians under his control, but he was rejected. So, it would seem entirely a matter of control regarding false prophets. They wish power. They want to be in charge. They write their books in competition with the Bible. And if you notice. GOD came to Mr. Smith. and told him to reject all other beliefs and then Moroni an angel came and tells Mr. Smith where to find what would become the Book of Mormon, and shows Mr. Smith how to translate the found plates-----no one else was allowed to do it ---- only Mr. Smith.

[boatsnguitars]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #11]

One would only have to read about Mohammed. He was involved with the Quran around 610 - 632 AD. This was years after the Bible was sealed with the closing of the book of Revelations around 95AD. I place the Gnostic texts, the Quran, and the Book of Mormon in the very same light. They are not inspired; however, they may contain inspired references from the Bible in an effort to gain validity.

Meaning you suspect that Moroni and the other Nephite Prophets lied when they took the effort of inscribing the Golden Plates in Reformed Egyptian?
Then you must explain why all this prophets worked so hard only for a lie!

You also think Mohammed thought up himself the holy Quran?
But if you really think that you have to explain why in this case the Archangel Gabriel who appeared to him in a cave, as a historical fact, would appear to a liar.
And even in this case: What then did the Archangel Gabriel teach Mohammed? Stephensons "Treasure Island"?

All what prophets? The Mormon founder Joseph Smith became the Nauvoo Legion, militia commander, and was styled the Lieutenant General. As such, he controlled by far the largest body of armed men in Illinois. Mohammed wanted to combine the Jews and the Christians under his control, but he was rejected. So, it would seem entirely a matter of control regarding false prophets. They wish power. They want to be in charge. They write their books in competition with the Bible. And if you notice. GOD came to Mr. Smith. and told him to reject all other beliefs and then Moroni an angel came and tells Mr. Smith where to find what would become the Book of Mormon, and shows Mr. Smith how to translate the found plates-----no one else was allowed to do it ---- only Mr. Smith.

Hmmm... Where have I heard excuses for not showing people things... Oh, right:
You remind me of the story of the rich man and Lazarus told by Jesus in Luke Chapter 16:19-21

“There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day.
20 And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores,
21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried,
23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’
25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’
27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house—
28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’
29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’
30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’
31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’ ”

How convenient for Smith and the Rich Man in the story: They don't need evidence because asking for evidence is bad.

Careful on that hoisting, your petard is snagged.

[The Nice Centurion]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #11]

One would only have to read about Mohammed. He was involved with the Quran around 610 - 632 AD. This was years after the Bible was sealed with the closing of the book of Revelations around 95AD. I place the Gnostic texts, the Quran, and the Book of Mormon in the very same light. They are not inspired; however, they may contain inspired references from the Bible in an effort to gain validity.

Meaning you suspect that Moroni and the other Nephite Prophets lied when they took the effort of inscribing the Golden Plates in Reformed Egyptian?
Then you must explain why all this prophets worked so hard only for a lie!

You also think Mohammed thought up himself the holy Quran?
But if you really think that you have to explain why in this case the Archangel Gabriel who appeared to him in a cave, as a historical fact, would appear to a liar.
And even in this case: What then did the Archangel Gabriel teach Mohammed? Stephensons "Treasure Island"?

All what prophets? The Mormon founder Joseph Smith became the Nauvoo Legion, militia commander, and was styled the Lieutenant General. As such, he controlled by far the largest body of armed men in Illinois. Mohammed wanted to combine the Jews and the Christians under his control, but he was rejected. So, it would seem entirely a matter of control regarding false prophets. They wish power. They want to be in charge. They write their books in competition with the Bible. And if you notice. GOD came to Mr. Smith. and told him to reject all other beliefs and then Moroni an angel came and tells Mr. Smith where to find what would become the Book of Mormon, and shows Mr. Smith how to translate the found plates-----no one else was allowed to do it ---- only Mr. Smith.

Lookee here: I find it sad that I have it to explain for rather intelligent people like you but . .

---- only Mr. Smith had his First Vision not once but several Times, aged back and forth while having the lot of them and also had his First Vision always different.
That it was possible for ---- only Mr. Smith to have his First Vision (normally logically an one time event) More than once and in diffrent ways and lifeages is a miracle of God in itself that should erase your doubts.

---- only Mr. Smith was deemed worthy by the angel Moroni to unearth the Golden Plates from the Hill Cumorah!

---- only Mr. Smith understood perfectly the lost language Reformed Egyptian!

---- only Mr. Smith owned the Urim and Thummin needed to decipher the Golden Plates.

---- only Mr. Smith could see the Holy Letters in his Magical hat owned by ---- only Mr. Smith.

That Moroni appeared to ---- only Mr. Smith is the ultimate proof that there were real prophests back then, because Moroni himself was one of them.

The fact that Moroni appeared to ---- only Mr. Smith is proof enough that all is true, for ---- only Mr. Smith was worth to receive and master all of that because ---- only Mr. Smith was the greatest Prophet of all time because that is written from his own hand in the Joseph Smith bible, restored in the way it was written by Jesus personally!!!

[LittleNipper]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #11]

One would only have to read about Mohammed. He was involved with the Quran around 610 - 632 AD. This was years after the Bible was sealed with the closing of the book of Revelations around 95AD. I place the Gnostic texts, the Quran, and the Book of Mormon in the very same light. They are not inspired; however, they may contain inspired references from the Bible in an effort to gain validity.

Meaning you suspect that Moroni and the other Nephite Prophets lied when they took the effort of inscribing the Golden Plates in Reformed Egyptian?
Then you must explain why all this prophets worked so hard only for a lie!

You also think Mohammed thought up himself the holy Quran?
But if you really think that you have to explain why in this case the Archangel Gabriel who appeared to him in a cave, as a historical fact, would appear to a liar.
And even in this case: What then did the Archangel Gabriel teach Mohammed? Stephensons "Treasure Island"?

All what prophets? The Mormon founder Joseph Smith became the Nauvoo Legion, militia commander, and was styled the Lieutenant General. As such, he controlled by far the largest body of armed men in Illinois. Mohammed wanted to combine the Jews and the Christians under his control, but he was rejected. So, it would seem entirely a matter of control regarding false prophets. They wish power. They want to be in charge. They write their books in competition with the Bible. And if you notice. GOD came to Mr. Smith. and told him to reject all other beliefs and then Moroni an angel came and tells Mr. Smith where to find what would become the Book of Mormon, and shows Mr. Smith how to translate the found plates-----no one else was allowed to do it ---- only Mr. Smith.

Lookee here: I find it sad that I have it to explain for rather intelligent people like you but . .

---- only Mr. Smith had his First Vision not once but several Times, aged back and forth while having the lot of them and also had his First Vision always different.
That it was possible for ---- only Mr. Smith to have his First Vision (normally logically an one time event) More than once and in diffrent ways and lifeages is a miracle of God in itself that should erase your doubts.

---- only Mr. Smith was deemed worthy by the angel Moroni to unearth the Golden Plates from the Hill Cumorah!

---- only Mr. Smith understood perfectly the lost language Reformed Egyptian!

---- only Mr. Smith owned the Urim and Thummin needed to decipher the Golden Plates.

---- only Mr. Smith could see the Holy Letters in his Magical hat owned by ---- only Mr. Smith.

That Moroni appeared to ---- only Mr. Smith is the ultimate proof that there were real prophests back then, because Moroni himself was one of them.

The fact that Moroni appeared to ---- only Mr. Smith is proof enough that all is true, for ---- only Mr. Smith was worth to receive and master all of that because ---- only Mr. Smith was the greatest Prophet of all time because that is written from his own hand in the Joseph Smith bible, restored in the way it was written by Jesus personally!!!

I know that you are being facetious. I enjoy good sarcasm. And I realize that you know that Jesus didn't actually write any of the New Testament personally. The HOLY SPIRIT cause CHRIST's some among HIS disciples to remember and write down what HE had said after HE ascended back into heaven. John 14:26
But THE COMFORTER (also known as the HOLY SPIRIT), whom the Father will send in my name, HE shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I've been telling you. John 16:17 But I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I am leaving; for if I do not leave, THE HELPER will not come to you; but if I go, I will send HIM to you.