So what would make a secular scientist believe in GOD?

[LittleNipper]

Presented here, so that we may have a place to start is one biochemist's (Dr, Sy Garte) journey from staunch atheist to firm believer: So, why are you a believer, or what would you need to become a believer in some Creator GOD.

[LittleNipper]

[Replying to LittleNipper in post #36]

Your belief that there is no GOD comes with terrible consequences. Even you must admit that if there is no GOD I lose nothing. If there is a GOD you lose everything. Now let me say this, everything I read per the Bible indicates to me that those that are saved have a future with GOD and the past things are forgotten -- the slate is clean... Those that are unsaved have nothing but regrets of opportunities missed with no future possibilities just reruns of a sorry part.

Pascals Wager as Miles pointed out. That has been debated here many times as you'd expect, and it has no relevance to someone who genuinely is convinced that gods do not exist. I don't have that belief on a coin toss or without a lot of thought on the subject long ago, but I am just as convinced that gods of any kind don't exist as you are convinced they do exist. And you, like all monotheists I've ever met, are further convinced that only the specific god you believe in is legitimate, correct? That is, you are an atheist when it comes to all gods except your favorite. I have no fear of "losing everything" for not believing in gods, as I also don't believe humans have afterlives so there is nothing risked on that front ... I'll die one day and my existence in the universe will be over at that point.

I believe in the only GOD who created everything that exists, and has always existed and will always exist, and scarified HIMSELF to save that which was lost. None other god claims any of this. As for whether GOD actually exists, I personally cannot see how anyone could witness the birth of a baby and not believe in MIRACLES --- unless one is simply indifferent.

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to LittleNipper in post #41]

As for whether GOD actually exists, I personally cannot see how anyone could witness the birth of a baby and not believe in MIRACLES --- unless one is simply indifferent.

Just study a little biology and you'll find that every living thing reproduces by some method, and many species besides humans give live births. There is nothing special or miraculous about the reproductive process for humans compared to any other mammal. The process is complicated to be sure, but it evolved over time like all complex biological systems. Here are a couple of interesting articles on the Australian three-toed skink:

https://www.sydney.edu.au/news-opinion/ ... -eyes.html

https://www.quantamagazine.org/egg-layi ... -20200518/

A better understanding of biology can eliminate the misconception that human babies are the result of some kind of miracle.

[LittleNipper]

[Replying to LittleNipper in post #41]

As for whether GOD actually exists, I personally cannot see how anyone could witness the birth of a baby and not believe in MIRACLES --- unless one is simply indifferent.

Just study a little biology and you'll find that every living thing reproduces by some method, and many species besides humans give live births. There is nothing special or miraculous about the reproductive process for humans compared to any other mammal. The process is complicated to be sure, but it evolved over time like all complex biological systems. Here are a couple of interesting articles on the Australian three-toed skink:

https://www.sydney.edu.au/news-opinion/ ... -eyes.html

https://www.quantamagazine.org/egg-layi ... -20200518/

A better understanding of biology can eliminate the misconception that human babies are the result of some kind of miracle.

You never had a baby ---- did you?

[Miles]

[Replying to LittleNipper in post #34]

Well then, I'm not trying to insult your honesty, but you never were a Christian in that you never experienced a personal relationship with the SAVIOR.

This (and the rest of the post) is the exact same pure preaching I heard in church as a young man. I don't argue with the point that I may not have been a "true" Christian when younger, but all attempts were made by my parents and community (school, etc.) to force that onto me and my siblings. It was presented as unarguable fact, not to be questioned. I realize a lot of people need religion and belief in gods for various reasons (eg. the comfort of believing in a higher power, the need to feel humans are special creations, that we're here for a purpose, as a crutch against life's problems, etc.). That's fine ... go for it.

The question I explored was whether any of it was actually true ... did god beings actually exist as real entities, did humans have afterlives, etc. I concluded that the answer was no and have never found any reason to change that position. It has only been reinforced as I got older. Beyond people's own brains convincing them that a particular god is real (and there are plenty of gods to go around), there is no convincing evidence for their existence (to me anyway), or any need for their existence. The threat of "going to hell" isn't a threat unless you believe such a place actually exists.

Your belief that there is no GOD comes with terrible consequences. Even you must admit that if there is no GOD I lose nothing. If there is a GOD you lose everything.

Ah ha, Pascals Wager enters the room. The only question now is, which god are you wagering your belief on, after all, Jehovah isn't the only guy in the game. In fact, the Greeks alone are said to have 176, the first twenty-five listed gods being:

1. Zeus
2. Apollo
3. Heracles
4. Poseidon
5. Hermes
6. Ares
7. Hephaestus
8. Hades
9. Chronos
10. Dionysus
11. Eros
12. Helios
13. Paean
14. Thanatos
15. Triton
16. Chaos
17. Notus
18. Pan
19. Erebus
20. Oceanus
21. Momus
22. Prometheus
23. Boreas
24. Morpheus
25. Hesperus

And this is just one of hundreds of cultures in the world that have gods.

Now let me say this, everything I read per the Bible indicates to me that those that are saved have a future with GOD and the past things are forgotten -- the slate is clean... Those that are unsaved have nothing but regrets of opportunities missed with no future possibilities just reruns of a sorry part.

And why are you paying attention to only what the Bible says when there are many other holy texts out there such as

Qur'an - Islam.
Gita - Hinduism.
Torah - Judaism.
Guru Granth Sahib - Sikhism.
Tripitaka - Buddhism.

What is it the Bible has to offer that, say, the Guru Granth Sahib, and Triptaka do not?


.

Do your research and you will find NONE of the Greek and Roman gods were taught to be eternal.

I didn't realize that being eternal was something that could be taught---Thanks for keeping me updated.

As for Buddhism it is an agnostic belief at best and promotes being good, but can one always be perfect?

Really! because I just read that

"In Chinese Buddhism, there is a list of Twenty-Four Protective Deities (Chinese: 二十四諸天; pinyin: Èrshísì Zhūtiān)." One of whom is "Leigong, the god of thunder."
(source: Wikipedia.)

And, of course we have "Brahma also considered to be the Supreme Hindu God - The Creator and destroyer of the universe."
Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh (Trimurti) are associated with creation, preservation and destruction. The most important Hindu philosophical concept that has been attributed to him is that of Brahmavidya (divine knowledge). Brahma is also considered to be the Supreme God - The Creator and destroyer of the universe.
source

Judaism is seeking a military leader but not a SAVIOR of the World --- who came, left, but promises to return! The first five books of the Bible are the Torah any additions the Jews have made is only trying to nullify what already exists there, so a means of man earning his salvation might be possible (however unpractical). The Qur'an and Islam tries to ride on the shirttails of what the BIBLE already says. Any religious belief that promotes being "good" to earn heaven misses the mark as only CHRIST is GOOD and neither you nor I nor anyone else has ever achieved HIS perfection.

Then we need to change our dictionaries' definition of "good." Correct? Can't go around saying things like, "Mmmm. Boy that tasted good. Or "Good job. Keep it up." Or, it's a good thing you rescued the baby from the raging inferno."


.

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to LittleNipper in post #43]

You never had a baby ---- did you?

No ... I'm not biologically capable of that since my 23rd pair of chromosomes are XY. But my wife had two of them that I helped to get started in the usual way. They were little humans, just like any creature produces offspring that are the same type. It goes on continuously throughout the animal and plant kingdoms according to the methods that evolved for that species. No miracles needed.

[brunumb]

Do your research and you will find NONE of the Greek and Roman gods were taught to be eternal nor did they create the Universe. As for Buddhism it is an agnostic belief at best and promotes being good, but can one always be perfect? Judaism is seeking a military leader but not a SAVIOR of the World --- who came, left, but promises to return! The first five books of the Bible are the Torah any additions the Jews have made is only trying to nullify what already exists there, so a means of man earning his salvation might be possible (however unpractical). The Qur'an and Islam tries to ride on the shirttails of what the BIBLE already says. Any religious belief that promotes being "good" to earn heaven misses the mark as only CHRIST is GOOD and neither you nor I nor anyone else has ever achieved HIS perfection.

The claims made in your preferred book are no better than those in any other religious text. You have just ended up, for one reason or another, adopting and defending them. That does not make any of them true no matter how much they have convinced you.

[boatsnguitars]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #11]

One would only have to read about Mohammed. He was involved with the Quran around 610 - 632 AD. This was years after the Bible was sealed with the closing of the book of Revelations around 95AD. I place the Gnostic texts, the Quran, and the Book of Mormon in the very same light. They are not inspired; however, they may contain inspired references from the Bible in an effort to gain validity.

Meaning you suspect that Moroni and the other Nephite Prophets lied when they took the effort of inscribing the Golden Plates in Reformed Egyptian?
Then you must explain why all this prophets worked so hard only for a lie!

You also think Mohammed thought up himself the holy Quran?
But if you really think that you have to explain why in this case the Archangel Gabriel who appeared to him in a cave, as a historical fact, would appear to a liar.
And even in this case: What then did the Archangel Gabriel teach Mohammed? Stephensons "Treasure Island"?

All what prophets? The Mormon founder Joseph Smith became the Nauvoo Legion, militia commander, and was styled the Lieutenant General. As such, he controlled by far the largest body of armed men in Illinois. Mohammed wanted to combine the Jews and the Christians under his control, but he was rejected. So, it would seem entirely a matter of control regarding false prophets. They wish power. They want to be in charge. They write their books in competition with the Bible. And if you notice. GOD came to Mr. Smith. and told him to reject all other beliefs and then Moroni an angel came and tells Mr. Smith where to find what would become the Book of Mormon, and shows Mr. Smith how to translate the found plates-----no one else was allowed to do it ---- only Mr. Smith.

Lookee here: I find it sad that I have it to explain for rather intelligent people like you but . .

---- only Mr. Smith had his First Vision not once but several Times, aged back and forth while having the lot of them and also had his First Vision always different.
That it was possible for ---- only Mr. Smith to have his First Vision (normally logically an one time event) More than once and in diffrent ways and lifeages is a miracle of God in itself that should erase your doubts.

---- only Mr. Smith was deemed worthy by the angel Moroni to unearth the Golden Plates from the Hill Cumorah!

---- only Mr. Smith understood perfectly the lost language Reformed Egyptian!

---- only Mr. Smith owned the Urim and Thummin needed to decipher the Golden Plates.

---- only Mr. Smith could see the Holy Letters in his Magical hat owned by ---- only Mr. Smith.

That Moroni appeared to ---- only Mr. Smith is the ultimate proof that there were real prophests back then, because Moroni himself was one of them.

The fact that Moroni appeared to ---- only Mr. Smith is proof enough that all is true, for ---- only Mr. Smith was worth to receive and master all of that because ---- only Mr. Smith was the greatest Prophet of all time because that is written from his own hand in the Joseph Smith bible, restored in the way it was written by Jesus personally!!!

I know that you are being facetious. I enjoy good sarcasm. And I realize that you know that Jesus didn't actually write any of the New Testament personally. The HOLY SPIRIT cause CHRIST's some among HIS disciples to remember and write down what HE had said after HE ascended back into heaven. John 14:26
But THE COMFORTER (also known as the HOLY SPIRIT), whom the Father will send in my name, HE shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I've been telling you. John 16:17 But I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I am leaving; for if I do not leave, THE HELPER will not come to you; but if I go, I will send HIM to you.

So, you believe John 16:17 because he wrote it down, but not Joseph Smith? He wrote down that you could believe him. What's the difference here?

Well, part of the difference is that John with the HOLY SPIRIT to inspire him wrote the book of John. John actually knew Jesus. He walked along with Him while he was on this earth. Mr. Smith, claims that an angel showed him where the plates were and then Mr. Smith apparently used his hat to decipher/translate what the plates said. Mr. Smith didn't write the supposed book of Mormon. And it seems odd that GOD could not have used multiple believers to do what Joseph Smith supposedly did. I mean the entire Bible is made up of the writings of say 40 individuals. Even while Moses penned the first 5 books of the Bible (he didn't copy someone else's work). Aaron was the first high priest, and Joshua was the second in command and became the general. GOD didn't stick everything in the hands of one individual.

religion... smh...

I'm not sure if you are for real or a Poe, but this is what is going on:

One guy writes a claim in a book: "I believe it! He says he knew Jesus!"
Another guy writes a claim in a book: "That's a ridiculous claim! He didn't even meet Jesus - just an angel!"


Honestly, it's painful to see the motivated reasoning so obvious and flawed. There is literally no logic behind it.

Honestly, Joseph Smith claimed to be a prophet. What does the Bible say about prophets? Deuteronomy 13:1-5
“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.

Here is what Mr. Smith taught and the LDS still accept it: https://www.ldsliving.com/3-fascinating ... ob/s/82249

Deuteronomy 18:22
When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.

Here is what Joseph Smith prophesied and the results that prove him to be a false prophet according to the Bible: https://coldcasechristianity.com/writin ... eph-smith/

I'm sure you are aware that Mormons have answers to your criticisms.

Just as Christians claim they have answers.

You don't seem to see that you are both the same. Muslims, Mormons, Christians, etc. You are all relying on unverifiable claims by other people.

[LittleNipper]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #11]

One would only have to read about Mohammed. He was involved with the Quran around 610 - 632 AD. This was years after the Bible was sealed with the closing of the book of Revelations around 95AD. I place the Gnostic texts, the Quran, and the Book of Mormon in the very same light. They are not inspired; however, they may contain inspired references from the Bible in an effort to gain validity.

Meaning you suspect that Moroni and the other Nephite Prophets lied when they took the effort of inscribing the Golden Plates in Reformed Egyptian?
Then you must explain why all this prophets worked so hard only for a lie!

You also think Mohammed thought up himself the holy Quran?
But if you really think that you have to explain why in this case the Archangel Gabriel who appeared to him in a cave, as a historical fact, would appear to a liar.
And even in this case: What then did the Archangel Gabriel teach Mohammed? Stephensons "Treasure Island"?

All what prophets? The Mormon founder Joseph Smith became the Nauvoo Legion, militia commander, and was styled the Lieutenant General. As such, he controlled by far the largest body of armed men in Illinois. Mohammed wanted to combine the Jews and the Christians under his control, but he was rejected. So, it would seem entirely a matter of control regarding false prophets. They wish power. They want to be in charge. They write their books in competition with the Bible. And if you notice. GOD came to Mr. Smith. and told him to reject all other beliefs and then Moroni an angel came and tells Mr. Smith where to find what would become the Book of Mormon, and shows Mr. Smith how to translate the found plates-----no one else was allowed to do it ---- only Mr. Smith.

Lookee here: I find it sad that I have it to explain for rather intelligent people like you but . .

---- only Mr. Smith had his First Vision not once but several Times, aged back and forth while having the lot of them and also had his First Vision always different.
That it was possible for ---- only Mr. Smith to have his First Vision (normally logically an one time event) More than once and in diffrent ways and lifeages is a miracle of God in itself that should erase your doubts.

---- only Mr. Smith was deemed worthy by the angel Moroni to unearth the Golden Plates from the Hill Cumorah!

---- only Mr. Smith understood perfectly the lost language Reformed Egyptian!

---- only Mr. Smith owned the Urim and Thummin needed to decipher the Golden Plates.

---- only Mr. Smith could see the Holy Letters in his Magical hat owned by ---- only Mr. Smith.

That Moroni appeared to ---- only Mr. Smith is the ultimate proof that there were real prophests back then, because Moroni himself was one of them.

The fact that Moroni appeared to ---- only Mr. Smith is proof enough that all is true, for ---- only Mr. Smith was worth to receive and master all of that because ---- only Mr. Smith was the greatest Prophet of all time because that is written from his own hand in the Joseph Smith bible, restored in the way it was written by Jesus personally!!!

I know that you are being facetious. I enjoy good sarcasm. And I realize that you know that Jesus didn't actually write any of the New Testament personally. The HOLY SPIRIT cause CHRIST's some among HIS disciples to remember and write down what HE had said after HE ascended back into heaven. John 14:26
But THE COMFORTER (also known as the HOLY SPIRIT), whom the Father will send in my name, HE shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I've been telling you. John 16:17 But I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I am leaving; for if I do not leave, THE HELPER will not come to you; but if I go, I will send HIM to you.

So, you believe John 16:17 because he wrote it down, but not Joseph Smith? He wrote down that you could believe him. What's the difference here?

Well, part of the difference is that John with the HOLY SPIRIT to inspire him wrote the book of John. John actually knew Jesus. He walked along with Him while he was on this earth. Mr. Smith, claims that an angel showed him where the plates were and then Mr. Smith apparently used his hat to decipher/translate what the plates said. Mr. Smith didn't write the supposed book of Mormon. And it seems odd that GOD could not have used multiple believers to do what Joseph Smith supposedly did. I mean the entire Bible is made up of the writings of say 40 individuals. Even while Moses penned the first 5 books of the Bible (he didn't copy someone else's work). Aaron was the first high priest, and Joshua was the second in command and became the general. GOD didn't stick everything in the hands of one individual.

religion... smh...

I'm not sure if you are for real or a Poe, but this is what is going on:

One guy writes a claim in a book: "I believe it! He says he knew Jesus!"
Another guy writes a claim in a book: "That's a ridiculous claim! He didn't even meet Jesus - just an angel!"


Honestly, it's painful to see the motivated reasoning so obvious and flawed. There is literally no logic behind it.

Honestly, Joseph Smith claimed to be a prophet. What does the Bible say about prophets? Deuteronomy 13:1-5
“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.

Here is what Mr. Smith taught and the LDS still accept it: https://www.ldsliving.com/3-fascinating ... ob/s/82249

Deuteronomy 18:22
When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.

Here is what Joseph Smith prophesied and the results that prove him to be a false prophet according to the Bible: https://coldcasechristianity.com/writin ... eph-smith/

I'm sure you are aware that Mormons have answers to your criticisms.

Just as Christians claim they have answers.

You don't seem to see that you are both the same. Muslims, Mormons, Christians, etc. You are all relying on unverifiable claims by other people.

The Christian's answers are found in the Bible. The historical places mentioned in the Bible are researched and discovered.

[boatsnguitars]

Meaning you suspect that Moroni and the other Nephite Prophets lied when they took the effort of inscribing the Golden Plates in Reformed Egyptian?
Then you must explain why all this prophets worked so hard only for a lie!

You also think Mohammed thought up himself the holy Quran?
But if you really think that you have to explain why in this case the Archangel Gabriel who appeared to him in a cave, as a historical fact, would appear to a liar.
And even in this case: What then did the Archangel Gabriel teach Mohammed? Stephensons "Treasure Island"?

All what prophets? The Mormon founder Joseph Smith became the Nauvoo Legion, militia commander, and was styled the Lieutenant General. As such, he controlled by far the largest body of armed men in Illinois. Mohammed wanted to combine the Jews and the Christians under his control, but he was rejected. So, it would seem entirely a matter of control regarding false prophets. They wish power. They want to be in charge. They write their books in competition with the Bible. And if you notice. GOD came to Mr. Smith. and told him to reject all other beliefs and then Moroni an angel came and tells Mr. Smith where to find what would become the Book of Mormon, and shows Mr. Smith how to translate the found plates-----no one else was allowed to do it ---- only Mr. Smith.

Lookee here: I find it sad that I have it to explain for rather intelligent people like you but . .

---- only Mr. Smith had his First Vision not once but several Times, aged back and forth while having the lot of them and also had his First Vision always different.
That it was possible for ---- only Mr. Smith to have his First Vision (normally logically an one time event) More than once and in diffrent ways and lifeages is a miracle of God in itself that should erase your doubts.

---- only Mr. Smith was deemed worthy by the angel Moroni to unearth the Golden Plates from the Hill Cumorah!

---- only Mr. Smith understood perfectly the lost language Reformed Egyptian!

---- only Mr. Smith owned the Urim and Thummin needed to decipher the Golden Plates.

---- only Mr. Smith could see the Holy Letters in his Magical hat owned by ---- only Mr. Smith.

That Moroni appeared to ---- only Mr. Smith is the ultimate proof that there were real prophests back then, because Moroni himself was one of them.

The fact that Moroni appeared to ---- only Mr. Smith is proof enough that all is true, for ---- only Mr. Smith was worth to receive and master all of that because ---- only Mr. Smith was the greatest Prophet of all time because that is written from his own hand in the Joseph Smith bible, restored in the way it was written by Jesus personally!!!

I know that you are being facetious. I enjoy good sarcasm. And I realize that you know that Jesus didn't actually write any of the New Testament personally. The HOLY SPIRIT cause CHRIST's some among HIS disciples to remember and write down what HE had said after HE ascended back into heaven. John 14:26
But THE COMFORTER (also known as the HOLY SPIRIT), whom the Father will send in my name, HE shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I've been telling you. John 16:17 But I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I am leaving; for if I do not leave, THE HELPER will not come to you; but if I go, I will send HIM to you.

So, you believe John 16:17 because he wrote it down, but not Joseph Smith? He wrote down that you could believe him. What's the difference here?

Well, part of the difference is that John with the HOLY SPIRIT to inspire him wrote the book of John. John actually knew Jesus. He walked along with Him while he was on this earth. Mr. Smith, claims that an angel showed him where the plates were and then Mr. Smith apparently used his hat to decipher/translate what the plates said. Mr. Smith didn't write the supposed book of Mormon. And it seems odd that GOD could not have used multiple believers to do what Joseph Smith supposedly did. I mean the entire Bible is made up of the writings of say 40 individuals. Even while Moses penned the first 5 books of the Bible (he didn't copy someone else's work). Aaron was the first high priest, and Joshua was the second in command and became the general. GOD didn't stick everything in the hands of one individual.

religion... smh...

I'm not sure if you are for real or a Poe, but this is what is going on:

One guy writes a claim in a book: "I believe it! He says he knew Jesus!"
Another guy writes a claim in a book: "That's a ridiculous claim! He didn't even meet Jesus - just an angel!"


Honestly, it's painful to see the motivated reasoning so obvious and flawed. There is literally no logic behind it.

Honestly, Joseph Smith claimed to be a prophet. What does the Bible say about prophets? Deuteronomy 13:1-5
“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.

Here is what Mr. Smith taught and the LDS still accept it: https://www.ldsliving.com/3-fascinating ... ob/s/82249

Deuteronomy 18:22
When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.

Here is what Joseph Smith prophesied and the results that prove him to be a false prophet according to the Bible: https://coldcasechristianity.com/writin ... eph-smith/

I'm sure you are aware that Mormons have answers to your criticisms.

Just as Christians claim they have answers.

You don't seem to see that you are both the same. Muslims, Mormons, Christians, etc. You are all relying on unverifiable claims by other people.

The Christian's answers are found in the Bible. The historical places mentioned in the Bible are researched and discovered.

Same can be said for most religions. I know your Christian apologists don't tell you this, but it's true. It's all about Christian Exceptionalism. Christians must believe they are unique among religions (as do other religions feel this way).

Certainly you are a smart fellow and realize there isn't a religion that preaches they AREN'T the truth!

[LittleNipper]

All what prophets? The Mormon founder Joseph Smith became the Nauvoo Legion, militia commander, and was styled the Lieutenant General. As such, he controlled by far the largest body of armed men in Illinois. Mohammed wanted to combine the Jews and the Christians under his control, but he was rejected. So, it would seem entirely a matter of control regarding false prophets. They wish power. They want to be in charge. They write their books in competition with the Bible. And if you notice. GOD came to Mr. Smith. and told him to reject all other beliefs and then Moroni an angel came and tells Mr. Smith where to find what would become the Book of Mormon, and shows Mr. Smith how to translate the found plates-----no one else was allowed to do it ---- only Mr. Smith.

Lookee here: I find it sad that I have it to explain for rather intelligent people like you but . .

---- only Mr. Smith had his First Vision not once but several Times, aged back and forth while having the lot of them and also had his First Vision always different.
That it was possible for ---- only Mr. Smith to have his First Vision (normally logically an one time event) More than once and in diffrent ways and lifeages is a miracle of God in itself that should erase your doubts.

---- only Mr. Smith was deemed worthy by the angel Moroni to unearth the Golden Plates from the Hill Cumorah!

---- only Mr. Smith understood perfectly the lost language Reformed Egyptian!

---- only Mr. Smith owned the Urim and Thummin needed to decipher the Golden Plates.

---- only Mr. Smith could see the Holy Letters in his Magical hat owned by ---- only Mr. Smith.

That Moroni appeared to ---- only Mr. Smith is the ultimate proof that there were real prophests back then, because Moroni himself was one of them.

The fact that Moroni appeared to ---- only Mr. Smith is proof enough that all is true, for ---- only Mr. Smith was worth to receive and master all of that because ---- only Mr. Smith was the greatest Prophet of all time because that is written from his own hand in the Joseph Smith bible, restored in the way it was written by Jesus personally!!!

I know that you are being facetious. I enjoy good sarcasm. And I realize that you know that Jesus didn't actually write any of the New Testament personally. The HOLY SPIRIT cause CHRIST's some among HIS disciples to remember and write down what HE had said after HE ascended back into heaven. John 14:26
But THE COMFORTER (also known as the HOLY SPIRIT), whom the Father will send in my name, HE shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I've been telling you. John 16:17 But I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I am leaving; for if I do not leave, THE HELPER will not come to you; but if I go, I will send HIM to you.

So, you believe John 16:17 because he wrote it down, but not Joseph Smith? He wrote down that you could believe him. What's the difference here?

Well, part of the difference is that John with the HOLY SPIRIT to inspire him wrote the book of John. John actually knew Jesus. He walked along with Him while he was on this earth. Mr. Smith, claims that an angel showed him where the plates were and then Mr. Smith apparently used his hat to decipher/translate what the plates said. Mr. Smith didn't write the supposed book of Mormon. And it seems odd that GOD could not have used multiple believers to do what Joseph Smith supposedly did. I mean the entire Bible is made up of the writings of say 40 individuals. Even while Moses penned the first 5 books of the Bible (he didn't copy someone else's work). Aaron was the first high priest, and Joshua was the second in command and became the general. GOD didn't stick everything in the hands of one individual.

religion... smh...

I'm not sure if you are for real or a Poe, but this is what is going on:

One guy writes a claim in a book: "I believe it! He says he knew Jesus!"
Another guy writes a claim in a book: "That's a ridiculous claim! He didn't even meet Jesus - just an angel!"


Honestly, it's painful to see the motivated reasoning so obvious and flawed. There is literally no logic behind it.

Honestly, Joseph Smith claimed to be a prophet. What does the Bible say about prophets? Deuteronomy 13:1-5
“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.

Here is what Mr. Smith taught and the LDS still accept it: https://www.ldsliving.com/3-fascinating ... ob/s/82249

Deuteronomy 18:22
When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.

Here is what Joseph Smith prophesied and the results that prove him to be a false prophet according to the Bible: https://coldcasechristianity.com/writin ... eph-smith/

I'm sure you are aware that Mormons have answers to your criticisms.

Just as Christians claim they have answers.

You don't seem to see that you are both the same. Muslims, Mormons, Christians, etc. You are all relying on unverifiable claims by other people.

The Christian's answers are found in the Bible. The historical places mentioned in the Bible are researched and discovered.

Same can be said for most religions. I know your Christian apologists don't tell you this, but it's true. It's all about Christian Exceptionalism. Christians must believe they are unique among religions (as do other religions feel this way).

Certainly you are a smart fellow and realize there isn't a religion that preaches they AREN'T the truth!

True, but such religions stipulate that only their leaders have authority that comes from god directly to them alone. Christianity, says that GOD has the authority and imparts it to anyone/everyone who trusts in HIM.