Is the human brain is the creator of human consciousness?

[William]

The topic of whether the human brain is the sole creator of human consciousness invites an exploration into the intricate relationship between science and philosophy.

While substantial evidence links brain activity to conscious experiences, the complex and subjective nature of consciousness raises profound questions. From the philosophical "hard problem" of explaining the subjective aspect of consciousness to the emergence of conscious states from neural complexity, this debate question delves into the heart of understanding human nature and spotlights the differences between philosophical views of materialism and other philosophies of human belief systems.
Question For Debate: Is the human brain the creator of human consciousness?

Please prove that the human brain is the creator of human consciousness.

[alexxcJRO]

"The prefrontal cortex is thought of as the “personality center” and is the cortical region that makes us uniquely human. It is where we process moment-to-moment input from our surroundings, compare that input to past experiences, and then react to them."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK4 ... 0to%20them.

The PFC mostly shuts of during sleep.
While sleep-walking, sleep-talking and so on the motor cortex (which control movement), visual cortex, balance and speech parts of the brain become active without the activation of PFC. The Cerebellum and brainstem are also active and assure certain task independent of PFC.
PFC is a part of the brain that all mammals have. Cats, dogs dream, twich, kick the air with their legs, make noises during sleep.

Analogy:
It's like this: the PC for example when goes into idle.
The PC does only basic function during idle. There is no user interaction via the mouse or keyboard, no major apps open, CPUS is at the lowest usage.
The consciousnes of the PC so to speak is linked to the material PC. When the PC is in load conditions-active(we have user interaction via the mouse or keyboard, major apps open, we have load on CPU) we have it in its concious state.

C: The same therefore when PFC is active we have the brain in conscious state. The consciousness seems to be linked to the material PFC.

My argument regarding the brain lacking a functional role for consciousness is that the brain can carry out complex behavioral activity (including ones that we'd think would require consciousness) without consciousness. To discredit that, you'd need to show that consciousness is involved in the examples that I brought up earlier regarding complex behavior during sleep.

It seems that you define consciousness as the activity of the prefrontal cortex (PFC), and that the PFC is even active during sleep. If you are using that to say that consciousness is active (in some idle form, going by your analogy) during sleepwalking, then I disagree. If your claim is that consciousness is not active, even given the activity of the other brain structures you brought up (i.e. cerebellum, brainstem, etc.), then it doesn't take away from my argument. I have different reasons for disagreeing with the first point starting with the definition of consciousness, but I'll stick to one point.

One reason I disagree with the first point is that brain can process information about the environment w/out our awareness of it. And this can occur even when we are awake. Here's some scientific perspective on that:

...your brain can pay attention to something without you being aware that it’s there.
Usually, when people pay attention to something, they also become aware of it; in fact, many psychologists assume these two concepts are inextricably linked. But more evidence has suggested that’s not the case.

- PsychologicalScience.org

This would go against your analogy because we can still lack awareness even while awake (PFC should be fully active when we are awake). Now it's easier to imagine why someone would not be aware of their environment while asleep, but for us to be unaware of the sensory information processing even while awake (paying attention to something) supports my point even more - consciousness is not needed for complex behavior as previously thought. I expect for this case to become more solid as researchers find ways to study unconscious complex behavior.

Research evidence shows that in laboratory settings, people can process and respond to information outside of awareness. But this does not mean that we obey these messages like zombies; in fact, hidden messages have little effect on behavior outside the laboratory (Kunst-Wilson & Zajonc, 1980; Rensink, 2004; Nelson, 2008; Radel, Sarrazin, Legrain, & Gobancé, 2009; Loersch, Durso, & Petty, 2013).

Source: https://www.coursehero.com/study-guides ... erception/

Nonsense.
In my opinion in sleep-waking scenarios the human is like an automaton, a robot which is programmed. A machine.
In wakefulness scenarios the human is a conscious being with personality, working memory, problem-solving, planning capabilities.
Sleepwalking does not refute the idea the material human brain is responsible for consciousness.

PFC plays a role in
-conscious “top-down” information processing (problem-solving and judgement)
-executive functions (self-control, planning, decision-making, behaviour activation and inhibition)
-attention and working memory
-personality expression
-metacognition and internal conflict resolution

On idle we disconnect from the outside world for a period of time. PFC goes on idle and loses connection so to speak to the other parts of the brain. Does not talk with the rest of the brain.

Neurons involved in complex conscious perception and memory associations showed much weaker responses during sleep.

Locus coeruleus noradrenaline system is responsible for this disconnection(going idle) by keeping a very low level of activity during sleep. When there is high activity here we go from idle state(sleep) to full active state(conscious state).

C: Consciousness seems to be linked to the full active state of PFC, coupled with the connections with the rest of the brain being too in full active state.

[AgnosticBoy]

In my opinion in sleep-waking scenarios the human is like an automaton, a robot which is programmed. A machine.

I agree. I suspected that was your position but wanted to be sure because other members have tried to suggest that sleepwalkers are conscious. Most should already know that the body has involuntary functions, like breathing and digesting. The disagreement is then on the degree to which it can function on its own - without awareness.

Sleepwalking does not refute the idea the material human brain is responsible for consciousness.

It is supporting evidence for the view that consciousness has no biological function in the brain. If I can do everything that my body needs, without having to be aware, then that would show that the brain/body does not need consciousness - it has no functional role. SLeepwalking is a good example because it shows that the wide range of voluntary behaviors that we'd normally do while awake (driving, sex, eating, cooking, killing) can also be done in our sleep and without awareness. What behaviors are left to say that consciousness is needed when we've covered the ones that occur involuntarily (like breathing, which is a given really) and voluntarily/while awake (driving)?

If consciousness had a biological function, and one that could only be carried out in a nervous system, then it would show that it is inextricably tied to the brain. By showing that there's no function or need for it in the brain/body shows that it is not tied to the brain, or there's no evidence for that.

In wakefulness scenarios the human is a conscious being with personality, working memory, problem-solving, planning capabilities.

There is no evidence that we can do that in our sleep, and perhaps not yet. I question how much of those activities take place unconsciously, or can do so, and we just don't know about it yet. Intuition is an unconscious cognitive process, and it could achieve some of those things. And as I stated earlier, the unconscious activity can drive behavior.

But if we focus just on function, then I can point to artificial intelligence as an example. Here's some details on that:

2. What are problem-solving techniques in AI?

Problems in artificial intelligence can be solved by using techniques such as searching algorithms, genetic algorithms, evolutionary computations, knowledge representations, etc.

Source: https://www.turing.com/kb/ai-problem-so ... e-learning

In order to successfully solve complex problems, the individuals or teams involved must be able to view and simulate the dynamic problem system in its entirety, imagining the events that would take place if a particular action were to be performed (de Laat et al., 2020).

Solving complex problems, therefore, depends on the ability of individuals to integrate diverse background knowledge and expertise into a dynamic collaborative process (Van Den Bossche et al., 2011).

AI systems are capable of analysing large datasets, including unstructured data, in real-time, and detecting patterns or structures that can be used to support human decision-making and team-based problem-solving. In the context of education, AI has the potential to transform the way that learners and educators approach complex problems, by providing personalized insights and data-driven recommendations. When AI is used in complex problem solving, the patterns of interaction become more sophisticated, since AI teammates augment human contributions and can influence the resulting actions by humans.

Source: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 0X23000176

Despite all of my points above, I still accept that consciousness interacts with the brain. The one main thing I think consciousness does is just give a subjective sense of self, which makes the experience (the thinking/feelings/behavior) personal. Maybe it's more than that and it leads into other subjective aspects, like feelings, mental experiences (like dreams), etc. Otherwise, nearly everything you bring up can be done without conscious effort or making it personal. And i've also explained elsewhere why I still accept this view despite studies showing brain stimulation/damage affects consciousness...For those interested, read here.

[William]

[Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #10]

Has it been shown at all that no consciousness is involved in these activities? What about "sub"?

It has but the issue is that scientists may not fully accept it if they confuse attention with awareness. Sleepwalkers will say that they are not aware of their actions, they don't remember it. There's cases where sleepwalkers have done things that they wouldn't have done if they were awake, and I'm not just talking about basic things. Some have committed violent acts on others while asleep (things that plenty would say requires consciousness):

Consciousness involves many things to do with the mind, not all of which a personality is aware of - such as subconscious activity/thought et al.

On the morning of May 24, 1987, sometime after 1:30 A.M., a 23-year-old Canadian named Kenneth Parks drove 14 miles to his in-laws' home, strangled his father-in-law to the point of unconsciousness, and beat and stabbed his mother-in-law to death. A year later he was acquitted of both assault and murder. After a careful investigation, specialists reached the astonishing conclusion that Parks had been sleepwalking—and sleep driving and sleep attacking—during the incident.

Drugs - such as alcohol - can have a similar affect on a personality unable to recall doing things.
Is it a case of the body having some other consciousness which enables it to function as an awake personality using said body?
Or - is it something about consciousness we have yet to fully understand - those things we are aware of but are more of a mystery for that, such as the subconscious?

I do not think it is logical to declare that "consciousness is a figment of the brains imagination" - which appears to be the underlying explanation for consciousness re Materialist Philosophy.

[AgnosticBoy]

Drugs - such as alcohol - can have a similar affect on a personality unable to recall doing things.

So far, I haven't found any reports of Kenneth Parks drug test or history. According to Canadian media sources, he did have a history of sleepwalking, and that was a big factor in his acquittal. Even his relatives were sleepwalkers according to speakers at this science and arts forum, here (start at the 2:30 minute mark).

Is it a case of the body having some other consciousness which enables it to function as an awake personality using said body?
Or - is it something about consciousness we have yet to fully understand - those things we are aware of but are more of a mystery for that, such as the subconscious?

I can't rule all of those out. But even if we say that the subconscious or unconscious was involved then it would not be conscious, by definition.

[William]

Drugs - such as alcohol - can have a similar affect on a personality unable to recall doing things.

So far, I haven't found any reports of Kenneth Parks drug test or history. According to Canadian media sources, he did have a history of sleepwalking, and that was a big factor in his acquittal. Even his relatives were sleepwalkers according to speakers at this science and arts forum, here (start at the 2:30 minute mark).

Is it a case of the body having some other consciousness which enables it to function as an awake personality using said body?
Or - is it something about consciousness we have yet to fully understand - those things we are aware of but are more of a mystery for that, such as the subconscious?

I can't rule all of those out. But even if we say that the subconscious or unconscious was involved then it would not be conscious, by definition.

Definition of what? A conscious individual/conscious individuals?

The point I am focused on is not courtroom verdicts or morality and justice re that particular case.
I am attempting to point out that we know so little as to the extent of "Consciousness" and thus remain "unconscious" re that mystery, but do have some insight into subconscious influences on the conscious personality, (due to scientific studies) regardless of whether the individual personalities are themselves, conscious or unconscious of said influence.

(Hopefully you are not conflating "unconscious" with "subconscious" as if these were the same thing, because that wouldn't be very helpful.)

[AgnosticBoy]

Drugs - such as alcohol - can have a similar affect on a personality unable to recall doing things.

So far, I haven't found any reports of Kenneth Parks drug test or history. According to Canadian media sources, he did have a history of sleepwalking, and that was a big factor in his acquittal. Even his relatives were sleepwalkers according to speakers at this science and arts forum, here (start at the 2:30 minute mark).

Is it a case of the body having some other consciousness which enables it to function as an awake personality using said body?
Or - is it something about consciousness we have yet to fully understand - those things we are aware of but are more of a mystery for that, such as the subconscious?

I can't rule all of those out. But even if we say that the subconscious or unconscious was involved then it would not be conscious, by definition.

Definition of what? A conscious individual/conscious individuals?

The point I am focused on is not courtroom verdicts or morality and justice re that particular case.
I am attempting to point out that we know so little as to the extent of "Consciousness" and thus remain "unconscious" re that mystery, but do have some insight into subconscious influences on the conscious personality, (due to scientific studies) regardless of whether the individual personalities are themselves, conscious or unconscious of said influence.

(Hopefully you are not conflating "unconscious" with "subconscious" as if these were the same thing, because that wouldn't be very helpful.)

I understood the two terms to be the same in that both do not involve consciousness. What is your definition?

[William]

[Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #16]

I understood the two terms to be the same in that both do not involve consciousness. What is your definition?

Sub consciousness does involve consciousness as it is an aspect of a persons overall consciousness.

The unconscious has to do with not being conscious of something - even if that something is the sub-conscious aspect.

One can be conscious of the subconscious and even interact with it through various means.

[alexxcJRO]

In my opinion in sleep-waking scenarios the human is like an automaton, a robot which is programmed. A machine.

I agree. I suspected that was your position but wanted to be sure because other members have tried to suggest that sleepwalkers are conscious. Most should already know that the body has involuntary functions, like breathing and digesting. The disagreement is then on the degree to which it can function on its own - without awareness.

Sleepwalking does not refute the idea the material human brain is responsible for consciousness.

It is supporting evidence for the view that consciousness has no biological function in the brain. If I can do everything that my body needs, without having to be aware, then that would show that the brain/body does not need consciousness - it has no functional role. SLeepwalking is a good example because it shows that the wide range of voluntary behaviors that we'd normally do while awake (driving, sex, eating, cooking, killing) can also be done in our sleep and without awareness. What behaviors are left to say that consciousness is needed when we've covered the ones that occur involuntarily (like breathing, which is a given really) and voluntarily/while awake (driving)?

If consciousness had a biological function, and one that could only be carried out in a nervous system, then it would show that it is inextricably tied to the brain. By showing that there's no function or need for it in the brain/body shows that it is not tied to the brain, or there's no evidence for that.

In wakefulness scenarios the human is a conscious being with personality, working memory, problem-solving, planning capabilities.

There is no evidence that we can do that in our sleep, and perhaps not yet. I question how much of those activities take place unconsciously, or can do so, and we just don't know about it yet. Intuition is an unconscious cognitive process, and it could achieve some of those things. And as I stated earlier, the unconscious activity can drive behavior.

But if we focus just on function, then I can point to artificial intelligence as an example. Here's some details on that:

2. What are problem-solving techniques in AI?

Problems in artificial intelligence can be solved by using techniques such as searching algorithms, genetic algorithms, evolutionary computations, knowledge representations, etc.

Source: https://www.turing.com/kb/ai-problem-so ... e-learning

In order to successfully solve complex problems, the individuals or teams involved must be able to view and simulate the dynamic problem system in its entirety, imagining the events that would take place if a particular action were to be performed (de Laat et al., 2020).

Solving complex problems, therefore, depends on the ability of individuals to integrate diverse background knowledge and expertise into a dynamic collaborative process (Van Den Bossche et al., 2011).

AI systems are capable of analysing large datasets, including unstructured data, in real-time, and detecting patterns or structures that can be used to support human decision-making and team-based problem-solving. In the context of education, AI has the potential to transform the way that learners and educators approach complex problems, by providing personalized insights and data-driven recommendations. When AI is used in complex problem solving, the patterns of interaction become more sophisticated, since AI teammates augment human contributions and can influence the resulting actions by humans.

Source: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 0X23000176

Despite all of my points above, I still accept that consciousness interacts with the brain. The one main thing I think consciousness does is just give a subjective sense of self, which makes the experience (the thinking/feelings/behavior) personal. Maybe it's more than that and it leads into other subjective aspects, like feelings, mental experiences (like dreams), etc. Otherwise, nearly everything you bring up can be done without conscious effort or making it personal. And i've also explained elsewhere why I still accept this view despite studies showing brain stimulation/damage affects consciousness...For those interested, read here.

Nonsense.

PFC full activation allows for the brain to have high cognition functions which are not present while sleepwalking.

Working memory( verify the relevance of information to the task in progress, keep the objective of the task in focus) with conscious “top-down” information processing (problem-solving and judgement) helps the animal to plan ahead and create strategies to get past obstacle.

Neurons in the PFC can fire over longer periods of time and across events. Helping an animal to engage succesfully in achieving long terms goal.
PFC contains mirror neurons which respond to internal or observed behaviours. These neurons help in social behaviour. Especially are involved in affective empathy.
The Pyramidal cells in PFC of mammals (especially apes and humans) are more complexly developed being able to handle more inputs from many sources.
Also a working PFC inhibits inappropriate behaviours which is detrimental to survivor.

The development of PFC was a result of Evolution by Natural Selection.



Groups of animal which where more capable of being more cohesive and able to engage in complex social behaviour(ex: mirror neurons-empathy) with high cognitive abilities(conscious “top-down” information processing (problem-solving and judgement; executive functions (self-control, planning, decision-making, behaviour activation and inhibition); attention and working memory; personality expression; metacognition and internal conflict resolution) were able to survive more easily and handle more easily the pressures of natural selection.

C: Consciousness by PFC and PFC conections activations with rest of the brain has clearly a biological function presented above.

PS: Also damage to PFC clearly alters one's self consciousness so to speak. Supporting evidence for what I said above.

[William]

[Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #16]

Split-Brain Syndrome.

Social Processing.

Sol and Earth exist and physically interact. (Why do we even give names to these stones?)
Consciousness and Brains exist and also interact.

Humans have believed that Sol revolves around the Earth.
Humans now have access to information which shows them that the truth is the Earth revolves around Sol.

The truth also is that Sol is revolving around other objects in the Galaxy, which altogether (the Galaxy) is revolving around some unknown thing in and of itself (as far as we can tell.)

Re "Evolving". (Obituaries.)



I think that (in a similar manner) what we humans presume about the brain and consciousness has it that some "believe" that Consciousness "revolves" around Brain, while other "believe" Brain "revolves" around Consciousness.

At this point, there is no consensus (among the "believers") which is "real" due to the rather tricky undertaking for Consciousness to "prove" to "itself" that "it" is "Real".

Some "believers" claim that the bridge over the Void of Death is "out" (does not exist) and that is the end of "you" "forever" or "until "God" decides whether you "live" or "stay dead".



I guess "we" will cross that bridge if "we" come to it.

For now "we" are stuck with the data we do have available to "us"

[boatsnguitars]

I'm still at a loss. What, other than the brain, is the source of consciousness? I haven't seen anything offered up.