The Value of Faith?

[boatsnguitars]

Reference:

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Yet, "Hope is not a strategy."

Theists love to use the "no atheist in foxholes" examples as a way to show that when the chips are down, and people panic, they seek out any straw to grasp, even ridiculous concepts like gods to save them - as if it makes their belief in God more reasonable.

However, I'll give a better example:

When the military is preparing for a battle that will either result in victory or death, they don't use hope as a strategy. It would be absurd to think that hope is something useful, faith even less so as it is the reliance on hope. Faith is subservient to hope. That is, one can hope to win the Lottery and we'd all think that's a nice dream, but if someone said "I have Faith I'll win the Lottery" we'd laugh hysterically. That's because the person isn't just hoping, but placing their trust and reliance on hope to win.

Truly, there is no real value in Faith. Hope, yes, Faith, no.

We all know that people can tread water longer is they have hope they will be saved soon. But let's look at the options:

1. Don't hope to be saved, drown
2. Don't hope to be saved, get saved
3. Don't hope to be saved, save yourself (maybe swim until you find an island)
4. Hope to be saved, drown
5. Hope to be saved, get saved
6. Hope to be saved, save yourself
7. Have Faith you will be saved, drown
8. Have Faith you will be saved, get saved
9. Have Faith you will be saved, save yourself

In each example, the outcome is the same. You either drown, get saved, or save yourself.

Faith has no role in increasing the odds of getting saved, other than the Hope one might have to tread water a little longer - but that is relying on the Hope, not the Faith.

It gets worse, though, because here we are talking about a general Faith. When we talk about Faith in God, it's so much worse:

1. Don't hope to be saved, drown (God let you drown)
2. Don't hope to be saved, get saved (God may or may not have saved you)
3. Don't hope to be saved, save yourself (God didn't help)
4. Hope to be saved, drown (God let you drown)
5. Hope to be saved, get saved (God may or may not have saved you)
6. Hope to be saved, save yourself (God didn't help)
7. Have Faith you will be saved, drown (God let you drown)
8. Have Faith you will be saved, get saved (God may or may not have saved you)
9. Have Faith you will be saved, save yourself (God didn't help)

Only in 1/3rd of the example, does God - maybe - help.

Now, consider this is what people use to believe in the origin of the Universe, Speciation, belief in dying and rising saviors, belief in an afterlife, etc.

Religion teaches that one must have Faith in their respective God, or else (in many cases) suffer for eternity. So, it's not as if one can waver in Faith. You MUST have Faith, or else get denied.

In fact, if a person drowns (or something bad happens), Religionists will often say, "You didn't have enough Faith."
So it's not enough that Faith is functionally useless, but it's required.

Think about how abjectly cruel that is! "You must have Faith to have a chance of getting in God's good graces but God is under no obligation to affirm your Faith."

With this fear of God's rejection, Religionists than use their choice of God's to dictate what they believe about the world, and many try to force their chosen beliefs on others.

Question:
Is Faith useless, cruel or worse?

[Purple Knight]

Is Faith useless, cruel or worse?

Not inherently. In the way I understand it, faith is really just a glorification of trust. Trust should be earned, but there definitely is a time and a place for it. Not being trusted when you've proven yourself over and over again is one of the most dehumanising things a person can experience; it's cruel in that instance not to have faith. It's saying to that being that has proven itself, you are inherently bad, I know so, and all those times you helped and nurtured me were just aberrations. Two people trusting one another and both treating that trust as unbreakable are much stronger than two people doubting each other.

You can even have faith in a fictional character and arguably it's safer since they can't really betray you. A fictional being has immense potential to be a good influence, a source of strength, and a well of courage. Fiction can indeed make us better people.

What's cruel is demanding trust or faith as some sort of a god-given, no-strings-attached right. If it's not for the Devil then it is for some beings (idk, maybe those who have proven themselves) and not others. Gods aren't the only ones who demand this. People do too. Any being who does demand unquestioning faith, perhaps we should stay away from.

[boatsnguitars]

In fact cancer remission is unexplained.

It's uncanny, no? That they claim God cured their grandma because she was so devout, but also the Muslims and Hindu's too, but also, let cancer take their babies, devout uncle, priest, etc....

It would be sad, but for their arrogance in declaring it a clear and obvious act of God (thereby giving them a "reason" to believe in the miracles in the Bible, thereby giving them a reason to believe in God, thereby giving them a reason to believe in miracles, etc.)

[TRANSPONDER]

In fact cancer remission is unexplained.

It's uncanny, no? That they claim God cured their grandma because she was so devout, but also the Muslims and Hindu's too, but also, let cancer take their babies, devout uncle, priest, etc....

It would be sad, but for their arrogance in declaring it a clear and obvious act of God (thereby giving them a "reason" to believe in the miracles in the Bible, thereby giving them a reason to believe in God, thereby giving them a reason to believe in miracles, etc.)

Valid point. The ploy of claiming fortunate events as down to Jesusgod when such things happen to believers in other religions or none makes the claim no more than Faith and not evidence. Yey it is presented as evidence.

But that's the basic flaw. Alternative religions are simply ignored. It's why Pascal's wager fails and why argument from morality was irrelevant even before DNA. It is on a par with a disaster. fifty die...but one survives after 12 hours of rescue work. God gets the credit. And as usual, informed atheists can see through these attempts at apologetics and believers will believe them even when debunked. It just has to be left to the undecided to decide.