Did the Word made flesh exist eternally?

[MissKate13]

‪Did the word made flesh exist eternally?‬

How do the Scriptures answer this question?

Micah 5:2
“But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Too little to be among the clans of Judah,
From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel.
His goings forth are from long ago,
From the days of eternity.”

John 1:3
“All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.”

Colossians 1:17
“And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. ”

John 17:5
“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”

The author of Hebrews likens Melchizedek to the Son of God without beginning of days or end of life.

Hebrews 7:3
Without father or mother or genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God, he remains a priest for all time.

[JehovahsWitness]

No, The Word refers to Jesus in his prehuman existence. John explained that he (Jesus ) was with God {qoute} "in the beginning". Since Jehovah (YHWH) has no beginning, this must refer to the beginning of God's creative works.

Jesus as a mighty spirit creature is described in scripture as the "firstborn of creation" meaning the first person (individual) God created (see Col 1:15, 16 ) So Jesus had a beginning to his existence.


JEHOVAH'S WITNESS


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[myth-one.com]

No, The Word refers to Jesus in his prehuman existence.

Jesus existed as a human following His being born of the flesh.

What is a prehuman existence?

[MissKate13]

‪Did the word made flesh exist eternally?‬

No, the Word existed eternally.

The Word is an everlasting spiritual bodied being. He created everything that was ever created.

The Word made flesh was the man Jesus Christ.

People get them confused.

During the lifetime of the man Jesus Christ, the Word continued to exist as a separate spiritual bodied being.

The Word was made flesh so that the fault in the Old Testament Covenant could be resolved.

Only a Jewish man could accomplish that feat.

Jesus Christ was that Jewish man!

I agree with you in part. The Word existed in eternity. The word made flesh was Christ, the Messiah.

Where I disagree is that “the Word continued to exist as a separate spiritual bodied being. You give no Scriptural support. I may be misunderstanding you. Please explain, and provide Scripture.

Thanks, Kate.

[myth-one.com]

‪Did the word made flesh exist eternally?‬

No, the Word existed eternally.

The Word is an everlasting spiritual bodied being. He created everything that was ever created.

The Word made flesh was the man Jesus Christ.

People get them confused.

During the lifetime of the man Jesus Christ, the Word continued to exist as a separate spiritual bodied being.

The Word was made flesh so that the fault in the Old Testament Covenant could be resolved.

Only a Jewish man could accomplish that feat.

Jesus Christ was that Jewish man!

I agree with you in part. The Word existed in eternity. The word made flesh was Christ, the Messiah.

Where I disagree is that “the Word continued to exist as a separate spiritual bodied being. You give no Scriptural support. I may be misunderstanding you. Please explain, and provide Scripture.

Thanks, Kate.

The scriptures state that there are two type of bodies, natural (also called physical, fleshy, earthly, and terrestrial) and spiritual (also called heavenly and celestial):

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (I Corinthians 15:44)

And these two type of bodies are different:

There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. (I Corinthians 15:40)

God is a Spirit and spiritual bodied beings are immortal:

John 4:24
God is a Spirit:In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:1-3)

Speaking about Christians who shall be born again of the Spirit as spiritual bodied beings, Jesus states:

Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. (Luke 20:36)

They shall be born again of the Spirit (God), and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit:

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

So the Word is a spirit and is immortal.

<===========================================>

But Jesus was a man:

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (1 Timothy 2:5)

During Jesus' life as a man in the physical world, the Word had no choice but to continue as a spirit in the spiritual heavenly world, because He was created as a spirit and can never die.

<================================================>

The Bible contains two testaments or covenants between God and man. And these covenants were everlasting covenants. Actually, the first covenant was with a subset of mankind -- the nation of Israel or Children of God.

The inheritance of either covenant is everlasting spiritual bodied life. Remember from above that when man is born again of the Spirit, man is no longer capable of death as he is no longer a man -- but an immortal spirit.

That's the reward of the inheritance. So we have a covenant with God as the benefactor and man as the possible beneficiaries.

To qualify as a beneficiary under the original covenant, one had to not have any sin imputed against him, where sin is transgression of the laws or commandments of God:

For sin is the transgression of the law. (I John 3:4)

But there was a fault in the first covenant in that all mankind ever born had sinned:

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (Romans 3:23)

<==========================================>

The Word created the system with the fault, so He was the one assigned by God the Father to fix the faulty original covenant.

Here is The Word's plan:

First, a Jewish human would have to live a sinless human life and die without ever committing any sin. That Jewish human would be the first and only human to qualify as an heir under the covenant to which He was a party. His name would be written in the Book of Life as an inheritor of everlasting spiritual life under terms of the "faulty" first covenant.

The Word could not be that Jewish human, because the Word was not human! Being a spiritual bodied being, He has to live eternally!

<===========================================>

Now, for the part which no man, except Jesus, could understand:

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)

Jesus was born for the purpose of dying, because the Word could not die:

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, . . . (Hebrews 2:9)


The Word has no choice but to continue being the spiritual bodied Word because He cannot die as He is an immortal spirit.

And there is no such creature as a hybrid natural body plus spiritual body.

So a mortal man was created which was a party to the first covenant -- the Jewish mortal man Jesus Christ.

He lived a sinless life and will inherit everlasting life under the original covenant. But God allows Him to offer His inheritance of everlasting life to those who believe in Him as their Savior from the wages of their sins.

Here is the biblical legalize to allow one man, Jesus, to offer His inheritance to multiple humans:

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one (Adam) many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. (Romans 5:15]

Salvation thus becomes a gift of God through Jesus Christ:

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

And sin is no longer associated with salvation:

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. (Romans 6:14)

That is how the Word fixed the fault in the original covenant. He was allowed to write a new covenant where humans simply have to believe in Jesus as their Savior to gain everlasting life.

[MissKate13]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #14]

The Word became flesh.

Notice in verse 2, the Word is referred to as HE. He was in the beginning with God.

Verse 3 - All things were made through HIM

HIM = the WORD

What part of Jesus is the Word are you not getting?

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

14And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #14]

The Word became flesh.

Notice in verse 2, the Word is referred to as HE. He was in the beginning with God.

Verse 3 - All things were made through HIM

HIM = the WORD

What part of Jesus is the Word are you not getting?

The Word is God who created every thing that was ever created:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (John 1:1-3)

Do you accept that the Word is God?

But Jesus was a man:

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)

For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, (1 Timothy 2:5)

Do you accept that Jesus was a man?

The Word is not equivalent to the Word made flesh. There is one God and there was one Word made flesh named Jesus Christ.

God is a Spirit and Jesus was a man.

The Word could not accomplish what was required of Jesus.

Jesus had to be born a Jew, as the first covenant between God and mankind applied only to God's chosen people.

Jesus lived a sinless life and upon His death He became the only person to ever become an heir to everlasting life under the Old Testament Covenant. That is, the wages of sin is death, but He never sinned, so everlasting life awaits Him under that covenant.

But God then allows Jesus to freely offer His inheritance of everlasting life to those humans who believe in Him as their Savior.

This was codified under the New Testament Covenant:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

This is how the Word fixed the "fault" in the original covenant:

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. (Hebrews 8:6-7)

God could not just renege on the original covenant because God makes everlasting covenants. The Word created everything ever created, so He created the original covenant. Since He created it, He was assigned the task of correcting the "fault" -- as explained above.

[MissKate13]

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (John 1:1-3)

Do you accept that the Word is God?

I believe heart and soul that the Word is God.

But Jesus was a man:

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)

For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, (1 Timothy 2:5)

Do you accept that Jesus was a man?

I believe heart and soul that Jesus was both man and God.

The Word is not equivalent to the Word made flesh. There is one God and there was one Word made flesh named Jesus Christ.

Who is the Son in Colossians 1:15-16? Is He not Jesus?
Is He not the one whom God created the heavens and earth through?

15The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him. (Colossians 1:15-16)

God is a Spirit and Jesus was a man

Jesus was both God and man. “And the Word was God.” (John 1:1)

God created the universe through His Son. (Colossians 1:15-16).

The Word could not accomplish what was required of Jesus.

The Word is Jesus. He is the Word made flesh. The Scriptures bear that out.

Jesus lived a sinless life and upon His death He became the only person to ever become an heir to everlasting life under the Old Testament Covenant. That is, the wages of sin is death, but He never sinned, so everlasting life awaits Him under that covenant.

But God then allows Jesus to freely offer His inheritance of everlasting life to those humans who believe in Him as their Savior.

Jesus is NOT awaiting eternal life. Nor does He inherit it. JESUS IS ETERNAL LIFE!

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. (John 14:6)

“If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

[MissKate13]

No, The Word refers to Jesus in his prehuman existence. John explained that he (Jesus ) was with God {qoute} "in the beginning". Since Jehovah (YHWH) has no beginning, this must refer to the beginning of God's creative works.
JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

I agree with you that YHWH has no beginning. I also agree that the Word was with God in the beginning, and the beginning refers to His creative works.

Genesis 1:1 also speaks about the beginning of God’s creative works, and we know from John 1:1 that the Word was with God in the beginning, and in John 1:3 through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.

We know, too, that the Word was made flesh (John 1:14).

To you, Jehovah’s Witness, I ask, when was the Word supposedly created?

From the gospel of John, we learn that Jesus (the Word made flesh) was with God before the world existed.

“And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed. (John 17:5)

According to Micah 5:2, Jesus is everlasting. Everlasting is from the Hebrew term “olam,” defined as long duration, antiquity, futurity.

“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth are from of old, From everlasting.” (Micah 5:2)

Paul tells us that Jesus was before all things, (the context being creation).

“And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.” (Colossians 1:17)

The author of Hebrews 7:3 likens Melchizedek to the Son of God without beginning of days or end of life.

“Without father or mother or genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God, he remains a priest for all time.” (Hebrews 7:3)

Now I know you will respond to my post with Colossians 1:15, but the problem with your interpretation of that verse doesn’t agree with the verses above. You must find a way to reconcile them.

Please no cut & paste quotes.

Thank you,
Kate

[myth-one.com]

For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, (1 Timothy 2:5)

Do you accept that Jesus was a man?[

I believe heart and soul that Jesus was both man and God.

/quote]

Two type of bodies are define in the Bible:

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (I Corinthians 15:44)

Do you believe that Jesus was "man and God" at the same time?

The two testaments of the Bible define covenants between mankind and God. In both covenants, God is the benefactor and the possible beneficiaries are from mankind. Those of mankind who meet the requirements of either covenant receive an inheritance of everlasting life.

Would Jesus be a benefactor or possible beneficiary under the covenants?

Would The Word be a benefactor or possible beneficiary under the covenants?

[MissKate13]

For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, (1 Timothy 2:5)

Do you accept that Jesus was a man?

I’ve already answered your questions. I gave you Scriptures. You, on the other hand, have not attempted to refute this passages I provided. Unless you’re willing to do that, this conversation is over. You don’t get to control the discussion. Refute what I’ve written before you start firing more questions at me.

I have proven that the Word made flesh is Jesus. I have used the Scriptures to do so. Prove them wrong if you think you can.