To tea with Scribes and Pharisees?

[oldbadger]

I go to a tea 'n' chat meeting at a church hall on Tuesday mornings and the conversation there (among all kinds of people) is brilliant. One of the people at this event mentioned that there is another very good tea meeting at another hall nearby on Mondays, and so I went along yesterday. I'm retired and can do this kind of thing, ok?

I arrived at this venue yesterday and found myself sitting within a group of men. It was pleasant enough but some of these people seemed to be very stern in countenance and speech, and as we discussed the gospels one of these men butted in with a very aggressive 'Every word in the bible was guided by the hand of Lord God Almighty!'. He didn't say anything else, either before of afterwards as we sat at this table.

But as I have said, the conversation was alright, although one man wanted to teach me about the flood and Noah's Ark, and mentioned very sternly that the only reason why there are no unicorns in the world is because Noah made a mistake and brought two male unicorns aboard by accident........ at that point he gave me a knowing look. Then one told me about Sodom and Gomorrah, another lesson, and so I did my very very best to reverse in to my most diplomatic mode and just asked questions. The thing is, my wife doesn't come to such events, and the lady who made the tea wanted to know all about my wife, and why had she not come along. After about 90 minutes the meeting ended and the organiser came to shake my hand and asked how I had heard about that weekly event. I mentioned that I had heard about it all at the Tuesday tea 'n' chat meeting just down the road.

The people around me fell silent..... One said, 'They don't follow the bible!' and then the comments followed like machine gun fire....
They marry Gays down there!
......... wouldn't go there.......
...wouldn't have anything to do with them...
Eventually the organiser told me 'They don't follow Jesus down there', and at that point I felt that nobody there could possibly know about how Jesus lived. You see, Jesus took his food and drink with the lowliest, most sinful and corrupt lowlifes in society and these people around me were talking like the Pharisees that Jesus had so despised. So the Pharisees would not sit with the kinds of people where Jesus enjoyed his meals.

I never told them that, I just asked the organizer what he thought Jesus would have said, and he answered that Jesus ordered 'No sinning'.

So I ask you, would I find the love and understanding at the Monday meeting like the one mentioned, or the Tuesday one where the priests will marry any who are in love, no matter who? I think I'll stick with the Tuesday group, but I would be interested to read any replies from members.

[oldbadger]

...If Jesus would eat and drink with sinners, surely then..... so should Christians?

In the case of the people with Jesus, they had rejected sin, they were not anymore sinners. I think Christians should also be with those who are not anymore sinners.

Sadly I have never met with any body at all who has claimed to be 'without sin', and I certainly would not trust anybody, including Christians, who claims to be.

Would you attend a function where you know that any LGBT people will (or could) be present? I wouldn't mind at all about that.
The self righteous Pharisees rubbished Jesus horribly because of whom he took food and drink with, as well as his enjoyment of wine, and you know what he told them back.......

[oldbadger]

I suppose some Christians would model themselves on God and eschew and avoid all sin ad sinfulness (which is odd if he is everywhere "No! He is not in the cupboard!" Dave Allen) or on Jesus, and hobnob with sinners in an effort to reform them.

My first rule would be to avoid a 'self proclaimed pure' Christian (or any other) like the plague.

Though honestly, I see Gospel Jesus preferring to eat with prostitutes and tax -collectors (which makes perfect economic sense) than with the teachers of the Law, only presented (in dubious narratives) in Luke, where the latter case just has Jesus polishing off the Phariseeic repast and licking the plates and then roundly abusing his host. And I don't see it as reforming the Pharisee, but damning him.

Jesus never got a free meal off a Pharisee........ but back then I'll bet that working Jews did lick their plates.

There are heavy hints that the mission to the Jews was not to give them the chance to be saved, but to ensure they'd be damned by seeing they weren't saved. Jesus says he speaks in parables to ensure they wouldn't understand, turn and be saved. Why not turn and reform the Pharisees who would then be instrumental in saving Judea? It's almost like God has already decided that Judea is not going to even be given the chance to be saved. No even a chance to be saved as a factor in a Plan decided before creation. Why then God's people at all? To give the Law and prophets to the Gentiles? But that is a burden that Gentiles are freed from. None of the OT is needed other than to provide examples of God's power and prophecies of Jesus.

I think that was just a Christian construct, because Jesus loved his own people (the working and poor people) and spoke out and acted for them. He probably was not a great public speaker because even his mates could get him wrong, but he certainly didn't speak in riddles so as not to give directions....what a waste of effort.

But that could be done and was done in the NT. The New Covenant makes nonsense of the Old. The new commandments could be given (including abolishing slavery, civic rights and paid maternity leave) and America could have skipped the civil war and the lost cause myth.

The answer of course is that Judaism was hi -jacked by the Gentiles, through the agency of Paul, and, while Paul pretty much damned the Law, the Greek Christians who followed his lead damned the Jews from the start of the mission, and especially teachers of the law. That is, none of the NT teachings are anything to do with what Jesus said or taught and everything to do with Greek Christian writers slamming and blasting the Jews, every chance they get, unless they convert. And even then the disciples are seen as constantly letting Jesus down. Their only purpose seems to be, to pass Jesusfaith onto the gentiles (1).

Paul wrote down hundreds, literally hundreds of rules, guidances and laws for the congregations, which keep getting quoted by Christians who also declare that they are above the law. It's all very wonky.

So why Jesus' mission to the lost sheep of Israel at all? Aside the 'God doesn't know what he's doing' apologetic - and the believers are welcome to use that one - God knew that Israel was doomed to be damned before he wadded the BB event into a super powerful ball. I have long wondered why Jesus didn't go to the gentiles in the first place, but that mission was reserved for Paul. But why?

Well, of course, we know, don't we? It was the other way around, sir, the other way around! The mission to the Gentiles began with Paul, not with the twelve never mind Jesus. So, since Jesus in fact did his mission (whatever that was) in Israel (Galilee and Judea), that is what the writers were stuck with, just as he was a Galilean when scripturally, he should have been Judean. True, he is shewn as visiting Gentile areas like Tyre and the Decapolis, but he did less there than in Nazareth it seems, apart from find a few Gentiles to wow him with how much more faithful they were than the Jews, in spite of Christian doctrine or faith in the risen Jesus not even being a thing at the time.

Jesus spoke and acted for his own....... folks like Paul schemed up the rest.

Need I keep banging the dinner gong of the Christian cafeteria? This is Greek, anti Judean, Christian gentile dogma, propaganda and re - interpretation, designed to backdate their preferences to the time Jesus was doing something different, that actually was intended to save Israel.

(1) I have a Theory why Jesus hands his old mum over to John,when his family were still there. I even suspect that Joseph, Mary's husband, was still alive, or James the 2nd eldest son plus Joses could have looked after her. I think it is Symbolic of Jesus handing his mantle and message over from the Jewish disciples to the Greek Christian one - John. At least as the John - writer sees it. For, while the surviving son of Zebedee (James gets killed in Acts) was Jewish - born, John is the traditional teacher of the Christian message to the gentile church fathers.

Do visit Christian cafeterias....do. But always chuck a donation in to the mug on the table.
Don't worry about John's story if you want to trawl any truth from it all.

[1213]

...
Would you attend a function where you know that any LGBT people will (or could) be present?...

It depends on what function.

[1213]

...If Jesus would eat and drink with sinners, surely then..... so should Christians?

In the case of the people with Jesus, they had rejected sin, they were not anymore sinners. I think Christians should also be with those who are not anymore sinners.

I think what you're saying here (though correct me if I'm wrong) is that it's about showing people who want to be better, the way to do that....

In a way yes. Jesus came to heal people and help them out of sinful state. This means he must go to those who are in that sinful state. But, it means also that the goal is that people get better. And that person can see he has done wrong things is a good sign, I think it tells person is righteous. And that understanding makes it possible to get rid of bad actions.

I think there's a humbling (the way JW uses humble, as in, being open to being wrong; to me humble is a very nasty word) moment to be absorbed when you decide to try to be like Jesus and go among people you see as lowly and sinners to teach them, because if it turns out there's no easy way to stop doing what they're doing, you would then see that for yourself when you try to show them how easy it is. And then maybe you don't think of them as lowly but simply unfortunate.

To the Monday people, the Tuesday people with their gay marriage and their less strict following of the rules, are willfully rejecting tenets that are clear. But I point out, that if the Monday people are mistaken, they are not wilful. They are simply misguided. And if they're simply wrong about what the Bible says, well, they are the lowly. They don't seem like they want to sin; they think they're doing what it takes not to sin. And it goes back to what the Bible says, doesn't it?

I think it is not good to think of anyone as lowly in any case. But, the truth is, some are unrighteous and evil and some may have done bad things, but there is a way to turn back to good path.

The real truth is, that everyone wants to be good. ...

Sorry, I don't believe that, unless good means something else for some people than for other.

[1213]

...There are heavy hints that the mission to the Jews was not to give them the chance to be saved, but to ensure they'd be damned by seeing they weren't saved. Jesus says he speaks in parables to ensure they wouldn't understand, turn and be saved. Why not turn and reform the Pharisees who would then be instrumental in saving Judea? It's almost like God has already decided that Judea is not going to even be given the chance to be saved. No even a chance to be saved as a factor in a Plan decided before creation. Why then God's people at all? To give the Law and prophets to the Gentiles? But that is a burden that Gentiles are freed from. None of the OT is needed other than to provide examples of God's power and prophecies of Jesus.

In the Bible the judgment goes like this:

And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness more than the Light, for their works were evil. For everyone practicing wickedness hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, that his works may not be exposed. But the one doing the truth comes to the Light, that his works may be revealed, that they exist, having been worked in God.
John 3:19-21

So, the problem is not in do people understand, but in are they honest. I think everyone has chance to be saved, but some just love more darkness than light.

Law is not a burden, but that doesn't mean it is not valid.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not heavy.
1 John 5:3

God made a new covenant with people through Jesus. In that new covenant law is written into the "hearts" of the people as foretold in these.

Behold, the days come, says Jehovah, that I will cut a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not according to the covenant that I cut with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt (which covenant of Mine they broke, although I was a husband to them, says Jehovah). But this shall be the covenant that I will cut with the house of Israel: After those days, declares Jehovah, I will put My law in their inward parts, and I will write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. And they shall no longer each man teach his neighbor, and each man his brother, saying, Know Jehovah. For they shall all know Me, from the least of them even to the greatest of them, declares Jehovah. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sins no more.
Jer. 31:31-34

And Jehovah your God will circumcise your heart, and the heart of your seed, to love Jehovah your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, that you may live. And Jehovah your God will put all these curses on your enemies, and on those that hate you, who have persecuted you. And you shall return and obey the voice of Jehovah, and do all His commandments which I am commanding you today. And Jehovah your God will make you abundant in every work of your hand, in the fruit of your body, and in the fruit of your livestock, and in the fruit of your ground, for good. For Jehovah will again rejoice over you for good, as He rejoiced over your fathers.
5 Moos. 30:6-9

The main difference between new and old is, in the old people obeyed the law because they had to, it was a burden them that they kept. In the new it is not a burden, because people willingly want to keep it, because they understand it is good.

...Paul pretty much damned the Law,...

Paul says:

And we know that the Law is good, if anyone uses it lawfully,
1 Tim. 1:8

So, I think you have misunderstood him, or speak about some other Paul than the one in the Bible.

[oldbadger]

...
Would you attend a function where you know that any LGBT people will (or could) be present?...

It depends on what function.

A wedding?
A party?
Dance?
A club meeting of some kind?
A tea 'n' chat meeting?

[oldbadger]

In a way yes. Jesus came to heal people and help them out of sinful state. This means he must go to those who are in that sinful state. But, it means also that the goal is that people get better. And that person can see he has done wrong things is a good sign, I think it tells person is righteous. And that understanding makes it possible to get rid of bad actions.

Can you describe a sin, can you think of a sin?
Can you think of any actions which you would describe as bad, and if so can you quote what Jesus said about thiose?
Do you know any righteous people, or is it that you just think they are righteous?

[TRANSPONDER]

...There are heavy hints that the mission to the Jews was not to give them the chance to be saved, but to ensure they'd be damned by seeing they weren't saved. Jesus says he speaks in parables to ensure they wouldn't understand, turn and be saved. Why not turn and reform the Pharisees who would then be instrumental in saving Judea? It's almost like God has already decided that Judea is not going to even be given the chance to be saved. No even a chance to be saved as a factor in a Plan decided before creation. Why then God's people at all? To give the Law and prophets to the Gentiles? But that is a burden that Gentiles are freed from. None of the OT is needed other than to provide examples of God's power and prophecies of Jesus.

In the Bible the judgment goes like this:

And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness more than the Light, for their works were evil. For everyone practicing wickedness hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, that his works may not be exposed. But the one doing the truth comes to the Light, that his works may be revealed, that they exist, having been worked in God.
John 3:19-21

So, the problem is not in do people understand, but in are they honest. I think everyone has chance to be saved, but some just love more darkness than light.

Law is not a burden, but that doesn't mean it is not valid.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not heavy.
1 John 5:3

God made a new covenant with people through Jesus. In that new covenant law is written into the "hearts" of the people as foretold in these.

Behold, the days come, says Jehovah, that I will cut a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not according to the covenant that I cut with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt (which covenant of Mine they broke, although I was a husband to them, says Jehovah). But this shall be the covenant that I will cut with the house of Israel: After those days, declares Jehovah, I will put My law in their inward parts, and I will write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. And they shall no longer each man teach his neighbor, and each man his brother, saying, Know Jehovah. For they shall all know Me, from the least of them even to the greatest of them, declares Jehovah. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sins no more.
Jer. 31:31-34

And Jehovah your God will circumcise your heart, and the heart of your seed, to love Jehovah your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, that you may live. And Jehovah your God will put all these curses on your enemies, and on those that hate you, who have persecuted you. And you shall return and obey the voice of Jehovah, and do all His commandments which I am commanding you today. And Jehovah your God will make you abundant in every work of your hand, in the fruit of your body, and in the fruit of your livestock, and in the fruit of your ground, for good. For Jehovah will again rejoice over you for good, as He rejoiced over your fathers.
5 Moos. 30:6-9

The main difference between new and old is, in the old people obeyed the law because they had to, it was a burden them that they kept. In the new it is not a burden, because people willingly want to keep it, because they understand it is good.

...Paul pretty much damned the Law,...

Paul says:

And we know that the Law is good, if anyone uses it lawfully,
1 Tim. 1:8

So, I think you have misunderstood him, or speak about some other Paul than the one in the Bible.

This is what happens when you cherry pick and quotemine. You ignore the one where the law was imposed to increase sinfulness. If it was 'good', then Paul would have encouraged Christians to follow it. Instead he exhorts them to avoid becoming subject to it.

Romans 3:20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Your quotes about judgement are irrelevant. They are just normal morality but Christianity given the credit. The situation is that Judgement on deeds is secondary. Membership of the Christian club is what saves, not deeds and certainly not the law - except for Jews, and Paul isn't sure even about that.

You may reject Paul (I seem to recall that you did) but the that is picking and choosing what bits of the Bible are true - based on personal opinion.

[Purple Knight]

I think it is not good to think of anyone as lowly in any case. But, the truth is, some are unrighteous and evil and some may have done bad things, but there is a way to turn back to good path.

The issue we have here is not about people knowingly doing wrong because they couldn't help it or were tempted. The difference is between misguided and wilful. The Monday people are stricter, and they see what is plainly in the Bible and they think of the laxer Tuesday people as wilful. But to the Tuesday people, the Monday people are Pharisees and their being strict while knowing it is wrong and intolerant to be so strict, is wilful.

The point is, somebody is misguided. But whoever that is, the other side that actually has it correct, will not help them, because they see the other side as willfully disobeying the Bible.

Nobody in this case is trying to sin. If the strict Monday people are wrong, it is because they see the words they see, and have not left room for the kind of tolerance Jesus did. If the lax Tuesday people are wrong, it's because they see nuance where there is none.

Maybe some people are wicked, but I see a lot of people who the good people will not give a fair shake to. People who have given up, because the arbiters of righteousness have closed the doors.

[oldbadger]

This is what happens when you cherry pick and quotemine. You ignore the one where the law was imposed to increase sinfulness. If it was 'good', then Paul would have encouraged Christians to follow it. Instead he exhorts them to avoid becoming subject to it.

There are over 1000 rules, guides and laws for Christians, mostly written by Paul.
And then of course there are the particular laws of Moses that some Christians do like to quote.

And I find that some Christians will duck and dive from 'We are above the law' in to 'The bible says.....!' , according to whether they are defending their lifestyles or imposing their wishes on to others.