GOD ALWAYS WORKS THROUGH THE MINORITY

[Eddie Ramos]

Many religions and denominations take pride, even boast of how large their followers are in numbers and the rate at which they are growing. But the thread of truth that runs throughout the whole of the scriptures is that God has always worked through the minority and never through the majority. This teaches us that when people look at their large numbers and equate that with their reasoning of God working through them, well the Bible teaches quite the opposite.

There are numerous accounts in the Bible which teach this truth, but my favorite is regarding the 400 prophets of Israel who were called to inquire of God whether king Ahab should go into battle and obtain victory or not. And since these 400 prophets were prophets of Israel, and Israel was recognized as the people of God, then surely these 400 prophets were true prophets of God, right? Especially since they all came to the same conclusion and spoke with one voice unto the king saying that God would surely give this king victory. Yet one one man is called to see what God had to say and he told the king that the king would die in battle and that these 400 prophets were false prophets.

But what's more, is that these 400 prophets truly believed that they were true children of God and that the one lone prophet wasn't. This is a tremendous warning to those who find comfort and assurance in the size of their religious group who claim the name of God. Anyone can read this account in 1 Kings 22.

What do you think about God always working through the minority? What do you think about those groups who firmly believe they are the people of God but are in fact not?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Eddie Ramos in post #18]

It is amusing that you would say that Satan wouldn't blind anyone's mind, after reading that the whole earth lies in his power (I John 5:19) and that he is misleading the entire earth (Revelation 12:9). Somehow Satan would refrain from doing that? Just what does it mean that the whole world lies in his power? What does it mean that he is "misleading the entire inhabited earth"?

To lie under the power of Satan does not imply deception. I showed you that in my previous post. Can you show me where deception (according to the Bible) means blindness?

To lie under the power of Satan is expressed throughout many historical parables in the Bible. For example, the nation of Israel was in Egypt under the rule of an evil Pharaoh who made them slaves. This is the same picture of God's chosen people who were under the power of Satan, unable just to walk away of their own free will and set themselves free, but were delivered by Christ (who Moses represented) from Egypt, which typifies the kingdom of Satan and from Pharaoh who represents Satan himself. Now, if we pay close atention, we notice that deliverance was specifically only for the nation which God had chosen to be a people for himself. This nation and these people only represented the true people of God, but their entire life story recorded in the Old Testament, conceals the same spiritual truth of the gospel of salvation which was only for God's chosen people, the elect.

Satan was powerless to stop Christ (Moses) from delivering his people. But it is the GOD of this world is the one who blinds people in order that salvation does not take place. In order that people remain in darkness. When and where do you read of satan having the power to blind so that people would not become saved? That would make the gospel powerless. If people could choose to let the light of the gospel shine whenever they wanted to, then what power would satan really have as the "god" of this world? There is no bliblical harmony when we place Satan as the god of this world who blinds the minds of them which believe not so that they would not become saved, if they can become saved whenever they felt like it. But I have given you plenty of scriptures that clearly declare that God is the one who blinds those that do not believe so that the gospel will not be heard nor understood and therefore resulting in no salvation for those people. Why have you never addresed those scriptures in light of 2 Cor 4:4? Don't you think they are relevant since they speak to the very same thing 2 Cor 4:4 is speaking about? This is why comparing scripture with scripture is the only way to see the whole picture clearly in the Bible and not our own reasonings, which I have been guilty of doing plenty of times when I thought the Bible was written to be plainly understood. But I've learned that God's ways and thoughts are not at all like ours.

Now, regarding Rev 12:9.

Revelation 12:9 (KJV 1900)
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

If you look up the word "deceiveth", you will never find this word translated as blindness because it has nothing to do with blindness. It has to do with lies and those who believe it. Now the reason that the lies (or the deception) is believed, is because of a few raesons given by the Bible. One reason can be lust (the wrong type of desire) as was Eve's motive, but the other is blindness. But blindness is the cause by which someone can be deceived, but blindness and deception are not the same thing. This is why Satan deceives the whole world (of the unsaved only), because GOD has blinded them. Another proof we can look at is the root word for this Greek word "deceived" (Strong's G4105) which is Strong's G4106 (same word, but different part of speech). And this word is also translated as "delusion", and do you know who is the one sending this delusion? It's GOD, not Satan.

2 Thessalonians 2:9–12 (KJV 1900)
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause GOD shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Is this saying that during this time period described above (the period of the antichrist/the great tribulation), that men's fates were sealed because they refused to believe in Christ? That because of this that God would send them a strong delusion so that they would believe lies and thus be damned? Why, at this time period, were they not allowed to change their minds anytime they wanted to, of their own "free will" and be saved? I know this is off topic, but no matter where we look in the Bible, the doctrine of "free will" is shown to be false. But what I described above is how, according to the Bible, we are to understand Rev 12:9.

Revelation 12:9----"So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth..."

What does "misleading" mean other than to "deceive"? Wouldn't Satan use any method to mislead people? He's got the whole world thinking that they can worship gods of stone and plaster and be on the right track. He's got the self-proclaimed Christians believing that they can worship a trinity and they are on the road to heaven. I would call that deception.

My dictionary (Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary) says: Mislead: "to lead in a wrong direction or into a mistaken action or belief often often by deliberate DECEIT." A synonym is "Deceit."

[Eddie Ramos]

Revelation 12:9----"So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth..."

What does "misleading" mean other than to "deceive"? Wouldn't Satan use any method to mislead people? He's got the whole world thinking that they can worship gods of stone and plaster and be on the right track. He's got the self-proclaimed Christians believing that they can worship a trinity and they are on the road to heaven. I would call that deception.

My dictionary (Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary) says: Mislead: "to lead in a wrong direction or into a mistaken action or belief often often by deliberate DECEIT." A synonym is "Deceit."

I feel as though you may not have understood my previous responses, so I'll give it one more shot. Deception (for fallen mankind) is the result of blindness. But who has done the blinding is the question at hand. And all the scriptures I presented proved beyond any doubt (to me) that it was only ever GOD Almighty because it was only GOD who ever had the power to prevent people from hearing the gospel and so become saved. Satan never had that power. Satan only contiunued to deceive those who had been blinded by God. There is a great difference between the two.

And so, in God's determined time, he allowed His light to finally shine upon each person whom he had chosen for salvation allowed them to receive their spiritual sight. This is why salvation was always in the hands of God alone. The apostle Paul is a perfect example of what I'm referring to. Did Paul ever "accept" Jesus as his personal Lord and saviour? Did he "choose to believe" in Jesus for his salvation? Of course not. The exact opposite was true. Paul (Saul) persecuted anyone who proclainmed the name of Jesus. And he did this thinking that he was doing service to God. But he was spiritually blind to the truth of who Jesus was. Until, Jesus allowed his light to shine upon Paul (this represents the hearing of the gospel) and later Paul became saved. BUt the whole time, Paul was told he was God's chosen instrument (as are all the elect) and that it was useless for him to kick against the pricks (like a stubborn donkey who refuses to move when being pricked). Thus, Paul serves as an example of all those who would become saved.

1 Timothy 1:16 (KJV 1900)
Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Also, we should never use dictionaries (secular or Christian) to try and understand a word God has placed in the Bible. The Bible is it's own dictionary as well as its own commentary. Therefore, God is the one who teaches us (through the Bible) how we are to understand any particular word he has written down for us.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Eddie Ramos in post #22]

Who has done the blinding is not "the question at hand." The Bible is clear. Satan is the one blinding the unbelievers' eyes.

"...The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one." (I John 5:19) Is the wicked one God (Jehovah)? Certainly not.

"Down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth." (Revelation 12:9) I have shown that to mislead is to be deceitful, and this is what Satan does. You don't accept this, even though it is clearly presented in the Scriptures, so I don't see any reason to continue this discussion. Thank you and may you have peace.

[Hawkins]

[Replying to Eddie Ramos in post #1]

Humans mostly don't know what they are talking about. Sometimes it can be a very subconscious perception (somehow about 'right and wrong'). It ties to an in-depth awareness on how shall a truth convey among humans. Humans are unaware of the correct methodology of conveying a truth, ironically they make use of it on a daily basis and on almost everything!

Isaiah 6:9: 'Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving'.

Truth, almost all kinds of it, including scientific truths, are gathered and reckoned by an authority to validate it to be most likely from an eyewitness account, then for an audience-facing mass media to broadcast it as fact or truth. If a piece of info is conveyed this way, and there is not a better alternative for it to convey. It is deemed as the valid and most proper way for a truth to convey among humans. However due mainly to the incapability of humans, the same vessel carrying a truth can also carry a lie, say infected by a lie from the eyewitness.
A typical example is, is it Biden or Trump actually won the election? We knew clearly that one of them must be a lie. Even so, since both are conveyed by a valid and legitimate vessel that one can (and can only) choose one of the two to believe with faith. The public is incapable of going further to identify which of the two being a lie! Poor incapable humans!

In this process, the agent counting the votes serves as the eyewitness, more critically it's the vendor providing the computers doing the counting. Only they know clearly how accurate the counting machines are and what can be considered as an accurate outcome. An authority (from the government) will accept and reckon the data as valid and factual then allows the US-facing (yes, it's a critical factor for a truth to be conveyed) media to broadcast it as fact/truth for the US citizens to choose to believe or reject. Since other "eyewitnesses" claimed that the vendor of computers is not honest, and counted invalid votes in favor of Biden. The current presidency (i.e., republicans serving as an authority) reckoned such a claim as factual then allowed the US facing media (mostly Fox News) to broadcast it as fact/truth, and for the US citizens to believe or reject with faith.

This world is full of nations and civilizations throughout its history. Can you establish a valid history of a small nation the same size as Israel?

In the case of Israel, God's truth is conveyed in the same manner. With prophets serving as the eyewitnesses, Israel being God's chosen people as the chosen authority, broadcast/proclaimed by Judaism which is Jews-facing. Such that the message of salvation is carried forward by the vessel. When Judaism failed to function. It's re-done again in the same way. God's chosen apostles serve as the eyewitnesses, for the Church serving as an authority to gather and reckon, then for a human-facing mass media which is Christianity to broadcast/preach. The human-facing factor is enforced by the explicit command, which other gods lack, to preach (i.e., broadcast in a human-facing manner) the good news to all nations.

Is there a better alternative for the same truth to convey? The answer is no, or you may find out a nation as small as Israel to validate its history! It is because the claimed truth follows the valid vessel of how truths shall convey among humans, plus there is no obvious alternatives for the same claimed truth to convey, that humans can treat it as truth or reject it, both in terms of faith. In the same manner as how you choose Biden as the winner but not Trump, while knowing consciously that one of the two must be a lie but incapable of distinguishing it.

[Eddie Ramos]

[Replying to Eddie Ramos in post #1]

Humans mostly don't know what they are talking about. Sometimes it can be a very subconscious perception (somehow about 'right and wrong'). It ties to an in-depth awareness on how shall a truth convey among humans. Humans are unaware of the correct methodology of conveying a truth, ironically they make use of it on a daily basis and on almost everything!

Isaiah 6:9: 'Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving'.

Truth, almost all kinds of it, including scientific truths, are gathered and reckoned by an authority to validate it to be most likely from an eyewitness account, then for an audience-facing mass media to broadcast it as fact or truth. If a piece of info is conveyed this way, and there is not a better alternative for it to convey. It is deemed as the valid and most proper way for a truth to convey among humans. However due mainly to the incapability of humans, the same vessel carrying a truth can also carry a lie, say infected by a lie from the eyewitness.
A typical example is, is it Biden or Trump actually won the election? We knew clearly that one of them must be a lie. Even so, since both are conveyed by a valid and legitimate vessel that one can (and can only) choose one of the two to believe with faith. The public is incapable of going further to identify which of the two being a lie! Poor incapable humans!

In this process, the agent counting the votes serves as the eyewitness, more critically it's the vendor providing the computers doing the counting. Only they know clearly how accurate the counting machines are and what can be considered as an accurate outcome. An authority (from the government) will accept and reckon the data as valid and factual then allows the US-facing (yes, it's a critical factor for a truth to be conveyed) media to broadcast it as fact/truth for the US citizens to choose to believe or reject. Since other "eyewitnesses" claimed that the vendor of computers is not honest, and counted invalid votes in favor of Biden. The current presidency (i.e., republicans serving as an authority) reckoned such a claim as factual then allowed the US facing media (mostly Fox News) to broadcast it as fact/truth, and for the US citizens to believe or reject with faith.

This world is full of nations and civilizations throughout its history. Can you establish a valid history of a small nation the same size as Israel?

In the case of Israel, God's truth is conveyed in the same manner. With prophets serving as the eyewitnesses, Israel being God's chosen people as the chosen authority, broadcast/proclaimed by Judaism which is Jews-facing. Such that the message of salvation is carried forward by the vessel. When Judaism failed to function. It's re-done again in the same way. God's chosen apostles serve as the eyewitnesses, for the Church serving as an authority to gather and reckon, then for a human-facing mass media which is Christianity to broadcast/preach. The human-facing factor is enforced by the explicit command, which other gods lack, to preach (i.e., broadcast in a human-facing manner) the good news to all nations.

Is there a better alternative for the same truth to convey? The answer is no, or you may find out a nation as small as Israel to validate its history! It is because the claimed truth follows the valid vessel of how truths shall convey among humans, plus there is no obvious alternatives for the same claimed truth to convey, that humans can treat it as truth or reject it, both in terms of faith. In the same manner as how you choose Biden as the winner but not Trump, while knowing consciously that one of the two must be a lie but incapable of distinguishing it.

I think I somewhat understood what you are trying to say, so I'm going to comment solely based on what I understood. If you feel I completely misunderstood your post, then by all means feel free to correct me.

What you are saying may be true between humans, but the Bible is not a book written by the minds of humans. The reason for this is due to our sin nature, which is why (as you said) while we may be capable of telling some small truth, we are also capable of lying. But God's Word is a pure word which is why it could not have any human interjection. This is why God makes this statement:

Romans 3:4 (KJV 1900)
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

God's Word is so pure and and absolutely true, that God has placed himself in subjection to his own Word.

Psalm 138:2 (KJV 1900)
I will worship toward thy holy temple,
And praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth:
For thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

The fact that all naturally born human beings are sttil cursed by our sin nature means that we are (even if we're truly saved) capable of being incorrect in anything we proclaim from the Bible as true. This is why God tells us that what any person proclaims from the scriptures as truth, that it is subject to the Word of God (to that which what God had the prophets record in the scriptures).

1 Corinthians 14:32–33 (KJV 1900)
And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion......

So anytime anyone proclaims something as a biblical truth, that truth is not subject to a consensus, nor is it subject to approval by biblical scholars, but only subject to the Word of God itself. And if the Word of God (as one cohesive truth) does not agree with whatever "truth" is being proclaimed, then that which is being proclaimed is a lie.

By the way, the nation of Israel are not truly God's chosen people, they only represented God's true chosen people (the elect) for a particular time during the Old Testament period. God ended his relationship with them because of their sin and established the New Testament churches as the new stewards of the gospel. At which point God Almighty blinded the nation of Israel until he shut the door of salvation (all in Israel were blinded except those chosen for salvation).

Romans 11:7–8 (KJV 1900)
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8 (According as it is written, GOD hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.