Size of a Religion - or Cult

[boatsnguitars]

I have to say, this was the most remarkable, and unintentionally hillarious posts I have read in a long time.

Many religions and denominations take pride, even boast of how large their followers are in numbers and the rate at which they are growing. But the thread of truth that runs throughout the whole of the scriptures is that God has always worked through the minority and never through the majority. This teaches us that when people look at their large numbers and equate that with their reasoning of God working through them, well the Bible teaches quite the opposite.

There are numerous accounts in the Bible which teach this truth, but my favorite is regarding the 400 prophets of Israel who were called to inquire of God whether king Ahab should go into battle and obtain victory or not. And since these 400 prophets were prophets of Israel, and Israel was recognized as the people of God, then surely these 400 prophets were true prophets of God, right? Especially since they all came to the same conclusion and spoke with one voice unto the king saying that God would surely give this king victory. Yet one one man is called to see what God had to say and he told the king that the king would die in battle and that these 400 prophets were false prophets.

But what's more, is that these 400 prophets truly believed that they were true children of God and that the one lone prophet wasn't. This is a tremendous warning to those who find comfort and assurance in the size of their religious group who claim the name of God. Anyone can read this account in 1 Kings 22.

What do you think about God always working through the minority? What do you think about those groups who firmly believe they are the people of God but are in fact not?

I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I actually agree with what you’ve written.

Imho, many denominations are in for a rude awakening.

Obviously, this is what you'd say if you believe in a small sect or cult! What a way to justify your belief - that only rare beliefs are true! It's downright, abjectly hillarious! This is "Motivated reasoning" at it's finest.

It's why I think religion damages the brain. Some people actually think this is a justification of why their beliefs may be true! It's patently absurd!

These people vote, possibly raise and teach our children, etc.

No doubt this was preceded by someone from a mega church, or the RCC saying that their sect was more popular - so, instead of simply agreeing, they've decided to use it as an Apologetic.

Isn't this a perfect example of Apologetics? The motivation, the bad logic, etc? To me it is.

[TRANSPONDER]

I was going to say it isn't, because reciprocity and empathy is an instinct older than the Hebrews and certainly older than the Bible...

Any proof that they are older than when people Got them from God? I don't have any reason to think people without God would have those, before people got them from God.

Or even more recently, when the mechanism of evolved instinct was understood through DNA.

Please explain what do you mean with that?

a quick look as there is denial about prayer (the Bible is clear about what it guaranteed, but you evade and deny it)

How I deny it?

the empty tomb thing where you invent stuff not in the Bible to excuse or deny what it actually says.

What I have denied in that? Nothing really.

You appear (if that is you) to evade or deny what Paul says and the context of Abrahamic righteousness

How?

and wasn't it you who denied what genesis says about daylight?

No.

Evidence is that animal reciprocity and empathy was there as a pack and family instinct before man even evolved. People co -existed and co -operated before there was civilisation. There were moral codes a social organisation (before Israel even existed and ancient writings before the Bible is even hinted at (600 B.C in the silver scroll) show empathy is a concept if only in gods sympathising with humans. You probably deny all of that, but the evidence exists,like it or not.

Instinct exists. Evidently it is a survival method and that's why it evolved. DNA, encoding behavior patters, is the mechanism.

As I recall, you denied (or evaded at least) that the Bible guarantee that whatever the faithful ask (and Luke says faith as small as a mustard seed will do it) is now prayer actually works. It is (so you said) sometimes yes, sometimes no = just as if there was no God at all.

It was you (I checked) made up the claim that Mary Magdalene split off from the others to explain why Matthew says 'they' met Jesus and Luke doesn't. Making stuff up - not that it works anyway.

I have argued that Paul says Faith not works is what saves. That is why he sidelines the Law. You say it Is works and not Faith that saves.

It wasn't you who denied that the genesis light was daylight? Ok, so you would agree that Genesis is wrong in saying there was daylight before the sun was made? If you admit something in the Bible is wrong, what else is wrong?

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Evidence is that animal reciprocity and empathy was there as a pack and family instinct before man even evolved.

What evidence?

...As I recall, you denied (or evaded at least) that the Bible guarantee that whatever the faithful ask (and Luke says faith as small as a mustard seed will do it) is now prayer actually works. It is (so you said) sometimes yes, sometimes no = just as if there was no God at all.

I don't deny that Bible guarantees that the people mentioned in the scripture will get what they ask. But, I think Jesus is a good example of that the faithful righteous people, wants first that God's will happens. Jesus asked that he could avoid the suffering, but he wanted more that God's will happens firstly. That is why he didn't avoid the suffering. It does not mean that prayer doesn't work as told in the Bible. God hears the prayers of righteous people, but they pray also in a way that means that things don't always go as some people want.

Jehovah is far from the wicked, but He hears the prayer of the righteous.
Pro. 15:29

Righteous prayer always wants God's will to happen firstly and I think it always goes like that. But, it also means things doesn't necessary go as people would like, because it is not necessary always the best thing. So, I think your expectation and understanding of prayer is wrong, not Biblical.

...You say it Is works and not Faith that saves.

No, I say, God saves those who are righteous. If person is righteous, he has righteous actions. For example Noah acted righteously when he built the ark and because of his actions, he could be counted righteous. Similarly, if person is faithful to Jesus, the person can be counted righteous because of those actions.

It wasn't you who denied that the genesis light was daylight? Ok, so you would agree that Genesis is wrong in saying there was daylight before the sun was made?

No intelligent reason to say Bible is wrong. In Genesis there is some light other than sun that causes day and night. And, I think it is possible that the light source was the same that nowadays can be seen as the source of cosmic microwave background.

[TRANSPONDER]

Evidence is that animal reciprocity and empathy was there as a pack and family instinct before man even evolved.

What evidence?

...As I recall, you denied (or evaded at least) that the Bible guarantee that whatever the faithful ask (and Luke says faith as small as a mustard seed will do it) is now prayer actually works. It is (so you said) sometimes yes, sometimes no = just as if there was no God at all.

I don't deny that Bible guarantees that the people mentioned in the scripture will get what they ask. But, I think Jesus is a good example of that the faithful righteous people, wants first that God's will happens. Jesus asked that he could avoid the suffering, but he wanted more that God's will happens firstly. That is why he didn't avoid the suffering. It does not mean that prayer doesn't work as told in the Bible. God hears the prayers of righteous people, but they pray also in a way that means that things don't always go as some people want.

Jehovah is far from the wicked, but He hears the prayer of the righteous.
Pro. 15:29

Righteous prayer always wants God's will to happen firstly and I think it always goes like that. But, it also means things doesn't necessary go as people would like, because it is not necessary always the best thing. So, I think your expectation and understanding of prayer is wrong, not Biblical.

...You say it Is works and not Faith that saves.

No, I say, God saves those who are righteous. If person is righteous, he has righteous actions. For example Noah acted righteously when he built the ark and because of his actions, he could be counted righteous. Similarly, if person is faithful to Jesus, the person can be counted righteous because of those actions.

It wasn't you who denied that the genesis light was daylight? Ok, so you would agree that Genesis is wrong in saying there was daylight before the sun was made?

No intelligent reason to say Bible is wrong. In Genesis there is some light other than sun that causes day and night. And, I think it is possible that the light source was the same that nowadays can be seen as the source of cosmic microwave background.

The evidence of reciprocity is in pack animals today and from the fossil evidence of animals co -operating in groups in the past (1). This is an initial form of animal society that was the basis of our own.

I think you fool yourself about 'God's Will'. I reckon the believer does what they prefer and change churches if they don't preach what he or she likes, and they tell themselves it is what God wants and pick a peice of Biblequote that has at least a word or two that fits.

Apart from the business in the garden not appearing in John (and anyone with critical faculties rather than denialist faith would wonder why not) and aside that Jesus should have known better than to even ask, that he is depicted as saying 'what you want not me' makes it look worse when Christians say 'What I want, and I'll say that's what you want'. I debated with a poster who changed his mind about Hell and hey presto what God was telling him about Hell changed, too.

Noah wasn't righteous because he built the ark that saved him, he was told to build the ark to save him because he was righteous. Not because of deeds or following the Law (which hadn't been given yet) but because he believed (in) God. Same with Abraham, same with everyone up to Paul where God belief saving became Jesus -belief saving.

I see no point in doing the Genesis light again.I have said before the Bible says the light and dark was evening and morning, and a succession of days. You are ignoring what the Bible says and inventing stuff to excuse why the Bible says the sun was made after daylight.

The excuse about prayer not working as promised in the Bible or in any way that wouldn't look that way if there was no god and no answered prayer is inadequate. That amputated arms don't grow back should settle the matter. Conflicting with God's plan clearly is an irrelevant attempt at an excuse, here.

All this has been done, and should not even be an argument now, but heaven and earth may pass away, but faithbased denial is endless,

(1) there was on impressive example of sabretooth tigers feeding a pack member who had been injured until the limb recovered.

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The evidence of reciprocity is in pack animals today and from the fossil evidence of animals co -operating in groups in the past (1). This is an initial form of animal society that was the basis of our own.

Sorry, apparently I don't have enough faith in you to believe that.

Apart from the business in the garden not appearing in John (and anyone with critical faculties rather than denialist faith would wonder why not) and aside that Jesus should have known better than to even ask, that he is depicted as saying 'what you want not me' makes it look worse when Christians say 'What I want, and I'll say that's what you want'.

I think it is a good lesson.

Noah wasn't righteous because he built the ark that saved him, he was told to build the ark to save him because he was righteous. Not because of deeds or following the Law (which hadn't been given yet) but because he believed (in) God. Same with Abraham, same with everyone up to Paul where God belief saving became Jesus -belief saving.

I agree that Noah was not righteous because he built the ark. I think he built it, because he was righteous. And because he was righteous, he believed the message from God. I don't think it is about believing in God, when one gets the message directly from God and the person then knows God is real.

I see no point in doing the Genesis light again.I have said before the Bible says the light and dark was evening and morning, and a succession of days. You are ignoring what the Bible says and inventing stuff to excuse why the Bible says the sun was made after daylight.

It is interesting, why you think no other light source than sun could cause the days and night?

[TRANSPONDER]

The evidence of reciprocity is in pack animals today and from the fossil evidence of animals co -operating in groups in the past (1). This is an initial form of animal society that was the basis of our own.

Sorry, apparently I don't have enough faith in you to believe that.

Apart from the business in the garden not appearing in John (and anyone with critical faculties rather than denialist faith would wonder why not) and aside that Jesus should have known better than to even ask, that he is depicted as saying 'what you want not me' makes it look worse when Christians say 'What I want, and I'll say that's what you want'.

I think it is a good lesson.

Noah wasn't righteous because he built the ark that saved him, he was told to build the ark to save him because he was righteous. Not because of deeds or following the Law (which hadn't been given yet) but because he believed (in) God. Same with Abraham, same with everyone up to Paul where God belief saving became Jesus -belief saving.

I agree that Noah was not righteous because he built the ark. I think he built it, because he was righteous. And because he was righteous, he believed the message from God. I don't think it is about believing in God, when one gets the message directly from God and the person then knows God is real.

I see no point in doing the Genesis light again.I have said before the Bible says the light and dark was evening and morning, and a succession of days. You are ignoring what the Bible says and inventing stuff to excuse why the Bible says the sun was made after daylight.

It is interesting, why you think no other light source than sun could cause the days and night?

Quite apart from you rejecting evidence - not anything claimed by me, it doesn't matter that you deny everything. It is not about getting you to accept anything Faith tells you not to - it is about showing that you have no case, but denial, rejection for evidence and fingers in the ears. And that you do superbly well.

Not least what you think it is a good lesson when when Christians say 'What I want, and I'll say that's what you want" You show exactly what is wrong with Christianity at least and why we need it out of Law, society and education.

Of course Doing what God wants depends on believing in God in the first place. Can you seriously suppose that anyone could say 'Abraham or Noah believing God is real - that's not righteous, following the orders - that's righteous". Don't lose sight of this being Paul's view - he replaced it with Faith in Jesus that saved, not following God's laws, which Paul wanted to dismiss for Gentiles. It is about Faith, not works.

Finally it is more than interesting that you determinedly ignore what the Bible actually says in favor of some hypothesis you have invented.

The Bible says the light was on and off, dark and light, morning and evening. It says that, not some imaginary cosmic glow that you have invented.

But thank you for being such a great example of Theist/Christian/Bible apologetics denialism, because blinkered denial of what the Bible plainly says also discredits your denial about other more debatable questions, resurrection, Exodus prophecy, and why the claim that 'atheists are never able to disprove the Bible' is a sham because convincing disproof is just rejected just as you did there.

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.... Can you seriously suppose that anyone could say 'Abraham or Noah believing God is real - that's not righteous, following the orders - that's righteous".

Bible tells that even demons believe, it does not help them. So, I think it is wrong to think that belief that God is real is enough.

You believe that God is one. You do well; even the demons believe and shudder.
James 2:19

I think Bible teaches that righteousness is wisdom of the just, it is like right understanding. If person has that right understanding, he also does right actions. The idea of wisdom of the just comes from here:

And he will go out before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah "to turn the hearts of fathers to their children," and disobedient ones to the wisdom of the just [also translated wisdom of righteous], to make ready a people having been prepared for the Lord.
Luke 1:17

Don't lose sight of this being Paul's view - he replaced it with Faith in Jesus that saved, not following God's laws, which Paul wanted to dismiss for Gentiles. It is about Faith, not works.

What do you think faith in Jesus means?

I think it means one remain in words of Jesus and lives by them and is loyal to Jesus, because:

Then Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in Him, If you continue in My Word, you are truly My disciples. And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
John 8:31-32

Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of Heaven, but the ones who do the will of My Father in Heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name do many works of power? And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; "depart from Me, those working lawlessness!"
Matt. 7:21-23

The Bible says the light was on and off, dark and light, morning and evening. It says that, not some imaginary cosmic glow that you have invented.

I have to admit that the idea of cosmic background radiation is not mine. But, it fits well to Bible's idea of some light source before sun.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_ba ... _radiation

[TRANSPONDER]

.... Can you seriously suppose that anyone could say 'Abraham or Noah believing God is real - that's not righteous, following the orders - that's righteous".

Bible tells that even demons believe, it does not help them. So, I think it is wrong to think that belief that God is real is enough.

You believe that God is one. You do well; even the demons believe and shudder.
James 2:19

I think Bible teaches that righteousness is wisdom of the just, it is like right understanding. If person has that right understanding, he also does right actions. The idea of wisdom of the just comes from here:

And he will go out before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah "to turn the hearts of fathers to their children," and disobedient ones to the wisdom of the just [also translated wisdom of righteous], to make ready a people having been prepared for the Lord.
Luke 1:17

Don't lose sight of this being Paul's view - he replaced it with Faith in Jesus that saved, not following God's laws, which Paul wanted to dismiss for Gentiles. It is about Faith, not works.

What do you think faith in Jesus means?

I think it means one remain in words of Jesus and lives by them and is loyal to Jesus, because:

Then Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in Him, If you continue in My Word, you are truly My disciples. And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
John 8:31-32

Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of Heaven, but the ones who do the will of My Father in Heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name do many works of power? And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; "depart from Me, those working lawlessness!"
Matt. 7:21-23

The Bible says the light was on and off, dark and light, morning and evening. It says that, not some imaginary cosmic glow that you have invented.

I have to admit that the idea of cosmic background radiation is not mine. But, it fits well to Bible's idea of some light source before sun.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_ba ... _radiation

You're missing the point about Faith being belief, not following orders. Faith is believing something they don't know for sure but beleiie anyway. That's the value of faith. Believing what they know is so is not Faith; it is knowledge.

You are wasting all our time with Wisdom of the Just. This is morality and is done better beyond Holy Books. The claim that Faith makes people do right is a claim I have to contest and you would soon find yourself having to apply human morality to the actions of Christians to decide which were doing right and which were not.

Faith in Jesus is what Paul started off - belief in Jesus as a dead messiah resurrected by God . If you believe all that - AND do his words, as you keep saying - you may hope to be saved. Doing Right without faith does not save. This is all very simple. Even if you try to smokescreen it with irrelevant Biblequotes.

Background cosmic radiation is a source of radio noise. It is not a source of light and even if it ever was, does not switch on and off as morning an evening. Stop scrabbling around for excuses with science you hardly understand.