Israel at War with Hamas October 7, 2023

[Diogenes]

There is no question this was a horrific attack by Hamas on Israel that also endangers Palestinians.
To what extent are attacks like this inevitable, considering the history of Israel?

Isn't this just another example of how religious conflict breeds violence?
or
Is it inevitable that strongly held beliefs will always ignite the passions of some?

Perhaps the difference with religions that claim authority from God is that they inspire absolute beliefs, an absolute conviction they are 'right' and therefore anything is justifiable... including following God's orders to kill your own son.

Palestinian land stolen in 1948, more in 1967, then more every day in the West Bank makes acts of terrorism inevitable. Then Netanyahu put a right wing criminal in charge of the 'Ministry of Justice,' and... BIG SURPRISE! ... another war.
"If I go the to write indictment number one, it would go to Israel's Justice Minister YARIV LEVIN. He is the man who drove this insane, corrupt, dishonest effort to basically take over the power of the Supreme Court. With Netanyahu's help, he fractured Israel. He fractured Israeli society. He fractured the Israeli ministry, the military. He fractured the Israeli air force...."
__ Tom Friedman

https://www.rawstory.com/tom-friedman-i ... A-TIAtHv6Y

[Donray]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #240]

Please provide something that Isael knew an attack was to occur on oct 7th. Please provide a source where I can read the full article and that the information was verified by multiple people. Not one person that give no source for the info.

So you are saying that if Israel knew that a rocket launcher was in a hospital or school, they should have destroyed the hospital and school and all the other place that could hide a rocket launcher or munitions. So, you're saying that it is OK to attack Gaza because someone had info of a pending attack. So, your OK with Israel making a preventive attack but not an attack after Palestine attacked Iseral on 0ct 7th?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Donray in post #241

Please provide something that Isael knew an attack was to occur on oct 7th. Please provide a source where I can read the full article and that the information was verified by multiple people. Not one person that give no source for the info.

They didn't have to know the exact date of the attack. All they had to do was stay constantly vigilant and the exact date wouldn't have mattered.

And can't help it if the full article isn't available without a subscription, nor can I go to Israel just to interview a sufficient number of people to satisfy you. Unless you're drifting into the fallacy of Impossible Expectations, you have to acknowledge that the story has been fairly well covered.

So you are saying that if Israel knew that a rocket launcher was in a hospital or school, they should have destroyed the hospital and school and all the other place that could hide a rocket launcher or munitions.

You can't defend your position by pretending that it's also mine. As I pointed out earlier, rocket launchers can't be used when they're inside buildings. To be used they have to be moved outside, and that's when they're vulnerable.

So, you're saying that it is OK to attack Gaza because someone had info of a pending attack.

Again, you seem to be trying to validate your position by pretending that it's mine. I said that it would have been prudent to increase defenses in anticipation of an attack.

[Donray]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #242]

Tell me how much time it takes to move a fully loaded rocket launcher from a school to the outside of the school and start firing rockets. Then tell me how the Israel army will destroy this without any damage to the school that is ten feet away.

[foolmefoolsyou]

Israel Knew Hamas’ Attack Plan a Year Before Oct. 7: Report
A YEAR BEFORE Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack on Israel, a document detailing plans to carry out the assault circulated among Israeli officials, according to the New York Times.
http://tinyurl.com/23644mzb
https://tinyurl.com/38dtrezp

Israel has been attacking Gaza for decades, trying to ethnically cleans the land for Zion settlements
Timeline: Israel’s attacks on Gaza since 2005
This is the latest assault by Israel on Gaza since the 11-day war in May 2021 killed hundreds and wounded thousands.
https://tinyurl.com/mrxuun7a
Effects of the Gaza War (2008–2009)
There are multiple humanitarian, medical, economic, and industrial effects of the 2008–2009 Gaza War which started with the Israeli air strikes on 27 December 2008 and ended on 18 January with a cease-fire implemented unilaterally by Israel, and later the same day by Hamas and other Palestinian factions. The cease-fire followed twenty-two days of bombardment by land, sea and air which left over 1,300 Palestinians dead and over 5,000 injured, and the death of 13 Israelis. The United Nations Development Programme warned that there will be long-term consequences of the attacks on Gaza because the livelihoods and assets of tens of thousands of Gaza civilians have been affected
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_o ... 80%932009)

The 2014 Gaza War, also known as Operation Protective Edge (Hebrew: מִבְצָע צוּק אֵיתָן, romanized: Miv'tza Tzuk Eitan, lit. 'Operation Strong Cliff'), was a military operation launched by Israel on 8 July 2014 in the Gaza Strip[/b], a Palestinian territory that has been governed by Hamas since 2007. Following the kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teenagers in the West Bank by Hamas-affiliated Palestinian militants, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) initiated Operation Brother's Keeper, in which some 350 Palestinians, including nearly all of the active Hamas militants in the West Bank, were arrested. Hamas subsequently fired a greater number of rockets into Israel from the Gaza Strip,
The Israeli military operation aimed to stop rocket fire into Israel from the Gaza Strip.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Gaza_War

As a response t the above we get this~~~~~~~~

The Arabic word 'Hamas (حماس) means "courage" or "zeal".
The Hamas covenant interprets its name to mean "strength and bravery".
HAMAS–the acronym for Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiya (Islamic Resistance Movement)—is the largest and most capable militant group in the Palestinian territories and one of the territories’ two major political parties. HAMAS emerged in 1987 during the first Palestinian uprising, or intifada, as an outgrowth of the Muslim Brotherhood’s Palestinian branch. The group is committed to armed resistance against Israel and the creation of an Islamic Palestinian state in Israel’s place. HAMAS has been the de facto governing body in the Gaza Strip since 2007, when it ousted the Palestinian Authority from power.

Primarily in Gaza; also maintains a presence in the West Bank; Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon; and key regional capitals, such as Doha, Qatar, and Cairo, Egypt.'

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Donray in post #243

Tell me how much time it takes to move a fully loaded rocket launcher from a school to the outside of the school and start firing rockets. Then tell me how the Israel army will destroy this without any damage to the school that is ten feet away.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/580-rocke ... cess-rate/

With Iron Dome at a 97% success rate, Israel should be able to concentrate a lot more on moving in and hitting the launchers at close range rather than just blowing up nearby schools and hospitals.

[Donray]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #245]

Again, you are the expert. on Iseral's ability to destroy ALL rockets and pinpoint the rocket launcher before they fire any rockets,

So, tell me how long. does it take to move a fully loaded rocket launcher from inside a school to the outside and start firing rockets?

Also, since you know that the iron dome can shoot down all the rockets tell me how per hour they can shoot down and at what cost?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #245]

Again, you are the expert. on Iseral's ability to destroy ALL rockets and pinpoint the rocket launcher before they fire any rockets,

So, tell me how long. does it take to move a fully loaded rocket launcher from inside a school to the outside and start firing rockets?

Also, since you know that the iron dome can shoot down all the rockets tell me how per hour they can shoot down and at what cost?

Did I say that Iron Dome could shoot down every rocket? No. I pointed out that it has a 97% success rate. That gives Israel enough of an advantage to concentrate more on precision strikes rather than on indiscriminate destruction.

And now you want to know not only the time frame for moving a rocket launcher, but also the cost of destroying the rockets? You're drifting deeper into the fallacy of Impossible Expectations.

By the way----did we ever settle the question of why Israel hasn't put more effort into locating and shutting down the tunnels used by Hamas to move equipment?


And as a reminder:

"Palestinian civilians are not to blame for Hamas's atrocities or for the grave humanitarian crisis in Gaza. They are its victims"
---Antony Blinken, U.S. Secretary of State

[alexxcJRO]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #245]

Again, you are the expert. on Iseral's ability to destroy ALL rockets and pinpoint the rocket launcher before they fire any rockets,

So, tell me how long. does it take to move a fully loaded rocket launcher from inside a school to the outside and start firing rockets?

Also, since you know that the iron dome can shoot down all the rockets tell me how per hour they can shoot down and at what cost?

Q: Why are you defending Israel at this point, huh? What is wrong with you?

Dear sir the Israelis have long lost the upper moral ground.

Things are not looking good.
1.
We have inflammatory, "genocidal" statements like:

“We are fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly,” Israel’s Defence Minister, Yoav Gallant, said, describing the Israeli military’s response just days after Hamas’ attack. “We will eliminate everything - they will regret it,” Gallant added.
“You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible - we do remember,” Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu
"There will be no electricity and no water (in Gaza), there will only be destruction. You wanted hell, you will get hell," Maj. Gen. Ghassan Alian, who heads the Israeli army’s Coordination of Government Activities in the Palestinian Territories (COGAT), declared.
“There is one and only (one) solution, which is to completely destroy Gaza before invading it. I mean destruction like what happened in Dresden and Hiroshima, without nuclear weapons,”.
“Gaza should be razed and Israel’s rule should be restored to the place. This is our country".
Moshe Feiglin, the founder of Israel's right-wing Zehut Party
“There should be two goals for this victory: One, there is no more Muslim land in the land of Israel … After we make it the land of Israel, Gaza should be left as a monument, like Sodom”.
Amit Halevi, Likud member in parliament
“Nakba? Expel them all,” “If the Egyptians care so much for them - they are welcome to have them wrapped in cellophane tied with a green ribbon.”
Nissim Vaturi, deputy speaker for Israel’s parliament.
“Nakba to the enemy now! This day is our Pearl Harbour. We will still learn the lessons. Right now, one goal: Nakba! A Nakba that will overshadow the Nakba of 48. A Nakba in Gaza and a Nakba for anyone who dares to join!”
Ariel Kallner, a member of Israel’s parliament
“It is time for Nakba 2.”Yinon Magal, a journalist and politician
“Your expectation is that tomorrow morning we’d drop what amounts to some kind of a nuclear bomb on all of Gaza, flattening them, eliminating everybody there,”.
Israeli Heritage Minister Amichai Eliyahu

The Nakba, which means “catastrophe” in Arabic, refers to the mass displacement and dispossession of Palestinians during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war.

https://www.newarab.com/analysis/erase- ... sed-israel

2.
Half of the Israeli munitions dropped on Gaza are imprecise ‘dumb bombs':

"The assessment, compiled by the Office of the Director of National Intelligence and described to CNN by three sources who have seen it, says that about 40-45% of the 29,000 air-to-ground munitions Israel has used have been unguided. The rest have been precision-guided munitions, the assessment says.
Unguided munitions are typically less precise and can pose a greater threat to civilians, especially in such a densely populated area like Gaza. The rate at which Israel is using the dumb bombs may be contributing to the soaring civilian death toll."
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/13/poli ... index.html

3.
We have tens of thousands of people killed. 45% of Gaza's housing units damaged or destroyed:

"The United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA), opens new tab, quoting data from the Palestinian public works and housing department, said Israeli attacks had destroyed more than 41,000 housing units and damaged more than 222,000 housing units. In all, it said at least 45% of Gaza's housing units had reportedly been damaged or destroyed."
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-ea ... 023-11-17/

"More than 27,000 people have been killed and 66,000 wounded by Israel's offensive in Gaza, the Hamas-controlled territory's Health Ministry said Thursday."
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory ... -106861226

4.
Accusation of an ongoing Genocide:

South Africa's genocide case against Israel
https://www.chathamhouse.org/2024/01/so ... 20genocide.

U.S. Court Concludes Israel’s Assault on Gaza Is Plausible Case of Genocide
https://ccrjustice.org/home/press-cente ... e-genocide

U.N.'s International Court of Justice in South Africa's case accusing Israel of genocide in Gaza ordered Israel to do all it can to prevent death, destruction and any acts of genocide against Palestinians in the territory.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza- ... cease-fire.

[Donray]

[Replying to alexxcJRO in post #248]

Have you heard that WAR IS HELL? Tell me some war ware civilians were not killed.

Palestine wanted war and started this war.

Keep in mind it is Palestine that said they want to eliminate Jews (genocide). Please point out where Israel has ever said they want to kill all Palestinians?

[Donray]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #247]

Yes I can see you know nothing about war and military equipment. Yet you want to comment the Iseral should have destroyed Hamas without and civilians killed.

You just want to support terrorist that only want to kill civilians.

Why won't Palestine tell Iseral they will return all hostages and allow Iseral in Gaza to destroy all tunnels and munitions? They want to continue the war.

Again you show your ignorance of miliary actions by saying Iseral should have destroyed the tunnels without going into Gaza. Tell me how. O, I forgot you don't know how.