What if... Morality = Empathy?

[Purple Knight]

Question for debate: What does it mean for religion, and society, if morality is just empathy, and that's it?

Empathy as in, you don't want to be hurt, you try to avoid hurting others. You're honest with yourself, and it goes exactly as far as you would want it to go, if you were in the opposite position. It stops, and there's no moral obligation to heed some request, if you'd genuinely not make such a request. Provided you wouldn't want anyone to simply kowtow and submit to you if you were being an awful tyrant, it stops, and there's no obligation, if someone likewise does not respect you or provide basic moral consideration to you.

What if morality is really this simple, has been this simple since prehistory, and people have been trying to overwrite or invalidate it with their own self-serving rules, for about three thousand years, or even more? What does it mean for religion, and the world?

Seems to me that we just have to navigate carefully and be honest with ourselves when people have different needs, and that's it. All of society's problems are solved and a lot of people whose business it is to inflate and profit from them, are out of a job.

[Purple Knight]

Yes. This is the problem with religion and particularly Christianity, I think. It is arguable whether religion actually makes people behave better. Rather it makes good people do bad things. ..

Please give one example and explain how did religion cause it?

Are you serious? Holy wars, crusades, heretic burning, anti - semitism, witch hunts. I suppose you'll say that is not religion but people. But it was religion that motivated those people.

Religion can make good people do bad things. But it's not the ultimate source of the desire to do bad things. It's just the means. JW says only a very few people are truly wicked. It's those few people who are the source.

There is a converse however. Atheism can make good people shrug their shoulders when bad things happen and question, "Dare I really interfere? Do I know for certain that this is wrong?" Maybe make is the wrong word. What I really should say is, fail to provide the moral authority to act.

Religion would be a great thing if those bad people at the top, wanting others to die in their crusades and/or raping children, could just disappear.

Maybe this is naive but I think my way is the ideal atheism, and the best way to get that moral authority to act: Would I treat another person this way? If not then I can stand up for myself and demand it not be done to me. Would I endure this treatment? Well if not, then I ought not treat others that way.

[TRANSPONDER]

This is fair. The point of atheism, humanism and secularism is not to produce a magic cure -all (like too many dogma -based system - claims do) but recognise the problems for what they are and (using the golden Rule (principle of reciprocity) that you point to above, discuss rights and wrongs. It is much better than the superstition, prejudice and tribalism that led to the bad stuff of the past, and is still going on today. But there is obviously a long way to go, yet. But those who want to go back to the illusion they call 'the Good Old Days' is not the answer.

[1213]

Very well. But what does God think? Tell us.

If you really want to know that, I recommend to read the Bible.

Have you confirmed that God agrees with everything in the Bible?

Bible God agrees with the Bible. If you know some other god that doesn't agree with it, it is obviously not the Bible God.

[boatsnguitars]

Very well. But what does God think? Tell us.

If you really want to know that, I recommend to read the Bible.

Have you confirmed that God agrees with everything in the Bible?

Bible God agrees with the Bible. If you know some other god that doesn't agree with it, it is obviously not the Bible God.

How do you know this to be true? And, in what way does the Bible God believe what is written in the Bible: literally everything as it's written, or in general terms. For example, does Bible God agree on the depiction of Hell in all areas of the Bible? Does Bible God still believe that witches, gays and Sunday workers ought to be killed? What about wearing mixed fabrics?

I know you have no answer for this other to reassert your beliefs about your chosen god. But it should give you pause to wonder over the next few decades.

You'll start to wonder if the writers of the Bible were actually writing about something they knew, or something they hoped to be true. I appears to be the latter: Faith is the substance of things hoped for. This would include God, no? That is, God is nothing but Faith. Your Faith is God. God is Faith. The feeling of hope (Faith) is the substance. God is the thing hoped for.

[1213]

How do you know this to be true? And, in what way does the Bible God believe what is written in the Bible: literally everything as it's written, or in general terms.

Bible God is what the Bible tells. And He obviously thinks as told in the Bible.

For example, does Bible God agree on the depiction of Hell in all areas of the Bible?

Obviously, hell is as said in the Bible.

Does Bible God still believe that witches, gays and Sunday workers ought to be killed?

Bible tells God doesn't change. So, if He thought certain people deserve death, it is still so.

What about wearing mixed fabrics?

Is there now some good reason to make such? I think what the Bible tells is still reasonable, if taken as it is written, not how some people twist it.

You'll start to wonder if the writers of the Bible were actually writing about something they knew, or something they hoped to be true. I appears to be the latter: Faith is the substance of things hoped for. This would include God, no? That is, God is nothing but Faith. Your Faith is God. God is Faith. The feeling of hope (Faith) is the substance. God is the thing hoped for.

Do you really believe what you preach?

[boatsnguitars]

How do you know this to be true? And, in what way does the Bible God believe what is written in the Bible: literally everything as it's written, or in general terms.

Bible God is what the Bible tells. And He obviously thinks as told in the Bible.

For example, does Bible God agree on the depiction of Hell in all areas of the Bible?

Obviously, hell is as said in the Bible.

Does Bible God still believe that witches, gays and Sunday workers ought to be killed?

Bible tells God doesn't change. So, if He thought certain people deserve death, it is still so.

What about wearing mixed fabrics?

Is there now some good reason to make such? I think what the Bible tells is still reasonable, if taken as it is written, not how some people twist it.

You'll start to wonder if the writers of the Bible were actually writing about something they knew, or something they hoped to be true. I appears to be the latter: Faith is the substance of things hoped for. This would include God, no? That is, God is nothing but Faith. Your Faith is God. God is Faith. The feeling of hope (Faith) is the substance. God is the thing hoped for.

Do you really believe what you preach?

So, it's all very clear what Bible God wants? Is that why there is only one denomination of Christianity? Because it's so clear?

Let me guess, you're going to say "The Bible is clear - it's people who aren't clear about what it says." (Blame the victim)
But, why couldn't God almighty make it clear to people?

Or, are you saying, "I don't care what the Bible says - I have my own belief about God that I don't need to defend."?

[1213]

So, it's all very clear what Bible God wants? Is that why there is only one denomination of Christianity? Because it's so clear?

Yes, it is very clear for anyone who remains in truth. Different denominations come, because people don't remain in truth and like more of their own doctrines than what is said in the Bible.

[TRANSPONDER]

So, it's all very clear what Bible God wants? Is that why there is only one denomination of Christianity? Because it's so clear?

Yes, it is very clear for anyone who remains in truth. Different denominations come, because people don't remain in truth and like more of their own doctrines than what is said in the Bible.

From what I have seen you have a denomination of one, and never mind I have said you ignore what the Bible says in favour of your own ideas, but you have pretty much dismissed mainstream Christianity because you disagree with it. You don't see the problem with pointing to the speck of dust in the eye of all those other denomination, but fail to see the lump in your own eye?

cue 'No because what i say is the truth" (selected Biblequotes as though that proved anything).

Trans ""How do you know?"

1213 something that shows that you believe that God is downloading Truth into your head, and anyone who says different is wrong.

Come on now That's what's actually happening, isn't it? You don't fool anyone with irrelevant Biblequotes and a pretence that you are getting all this from the Bible; you are clearly quotemining, fiddling and dismissing the Bible so as to suit your own personal beliefs. Isn't it?

[1213]

From what I have seen you have a denomination of one, and never mind I have said you ignore what the Bible says in favour of your own ideas, but you have pretty much dismissed mainstream Christianity because you disagree with it. You don't see the problem with pointing to the speck of dust in the eye of all those other denomination, but fail to see the lump in your own eye?

What I have ignored?

Please tell what is the "lump" in my eye?

1213 something that shows that you believe that God is downloading Truth into your head, and anyone who says different is wrong.

Actually I just read directly what is said in the Bible.

[TRANSPONDER]

From what I have seen you have a denomination of one, and never mind I have said you ignore what the Bible says in favour of your own ideas, but you have pretty much dismissed mainstream Christianity because you disagree with it. You don't see the problem with pointing to the speck of dust in the eye of all those other denomination, but fail to see the lump in your own eye?

What I have ignored?

Please tell what is the "lump" in my eye?

1213 something that shows that you believe that God is downloading Truth into your head, and anyone who says different is wrong.

Actually I just read directly what is said in the Bible.

The 'lump' is right here: You posted - Yes, it is very clear for anyone who remains in truth. Different denominations come, because people don't remain in truth and like more of their own doctrines than what is said in the Bible.

I already said that you have developed a denomination of your own because you are coming up with your own ideas and backing them up with questionable quotes, even one or two that refute you; but you Believe they support you. Do you think other denominations can't quote scripture to their purpose?
You claim to be following the Bible but I think what you are doing is what all these founders, dissenters and apologists do - Come up with their own ideas abd beleive that God is dowloading Truth into their heads. Come on now, isn't that really what you think is happening? You then pick Bible verses that you think fit, and present them as 'evidence'. Just as the Creationist fiddled science evidence to support what they believe God is telling them.

You know and I'm sure, your insistence that you know better than what the Bible appears to say is direct from God, into your ever -lovin' bonce, isn'tit, really?