Jesus is God - Colossians 1:15-16

[Wootah]

The Son is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things in heaven and on earth were created,
things visible and invisible,
whether they are kings, lords, rulers, or powers.
All things have been created through him and for him.
17 He himself existed before anything else did,
and he holds all things together.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=ISV

If all things have been created through Jesus then Jesus cannot have been created.

If Jesus is not created he must be God.

Is this proof Jesus is God?

Youtube video:

[JehovahsWitness]

CLAIM : If all things have been created through Jesus then Jesus cannot have been created.

FALSE: That would depend on if the word "all" is being used in the ABSOLUTE (all that exists) or in the RELATIVE (all that exists with certain exception(s)).


HOW DO WE KNOW PAUL WAS USING THE WORLD "ALL" IN THE RELATIVE SENSE NOT THE ABSOLUTE?

Because taking the "all" in the absolute would contradict scripture. Since the Father (YHWH ) exists , to say that absolutely all that exists was created through Jesus would mean Jesus was used to create the Father himself. This is of course nonsense sjnce God is uncreated. So any understanding of Colossian's "all" MUST take it to mean "all" with at least one exception. If "all" has an exception it is by definition RELATIVE.

So having established that Paul's "all" carries an implicite exception we can ask if Jesus himself can also be an exception and if so why

WHY WOULD JESUS NOT BE INCLUDED IN THE "ALL"?

Thinking trinitarians are forced admit that the "all things" of Colossians is RELATIVE and does not include absolutely all that EXISTS, but will claim that the only catagory of exceptions would be uncreated beings. But this is not a given. Once we have opened the door to any exception (by regognising that the "all things" is relative) , scripture (not church theology or human thinking) establishes what the EXCEPTIONS include.

WHY IS JESUS AN EXCEPTION ?

Since Jesus is refered to as being a created being, then Jesus must have been excetional for a different reason to that of YWHH (Jehovah). The bible describes Jesus as the "only begotten son" this means Jesus as THE WORD was an absolutely unique son out of all God's sons (God's angelic spirit intelligent children) Why was Jesus unique? because he is the first, most preminent creation and the only thing YHWH created alone, without collaboration.





CONCLUSION Colossians does not establish Jesus is an un created being but rather that he is the one through whom "collaborative" creation came into existence.


FURTHER READING For a much more detailled analysis please see the following links:
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.fr/ ... l-115.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200312032221 ... otokos.htm




COLOSSIANS

• Is Jesus the firstborn (prototokos) or the highest (preeminent) of creation?
  viewtopic.php?p=1134089#p1134089
  
  Is Jesus the firstborn "OVER" creation or the firstborn "OF" creation?
  viewtopic.php?p=1134107#p1134107
  
  COLOSSIANS 1:16 "all things were created BY or THROUGH (Jesus) ? ( Col 1:16b; John1:13)
  viewtopic.php?p=1134111#p1134111
  
  COLOSSIANS 1:17 "he is before all, and by him all things consist"
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 86#p934886

[1213]

The Son is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things in heaven and on earth were created,
things visible and invisible,
whether they are kings, lords, rulers, or powers.
All things have been created through him and for him.
17 He himself existed before anything else did,
and he holds all things together.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=ISV

If all things have been created through Jesus then Jesus cannot have been created.

If Jesus is not created he must be God.

Is this proof Jesus is God?

Please explain what do you think "the firstborn over all creation" means?

And what means "is the image of the invisible God"?

If Jesus is the one and only true God, why would he be called "image of God" and not just "God"?

[Brightfame52]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #2]

So why couldn't've Jesus have Created all except Himself as God ? There's no way around it, Jesus is God the Creator, for there's only One Creator. So again Col 1:16-17

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Notice all things were created for Him as well, that can only be God Prov 16:4

4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

[JehovahsWitness]

OVER OR OF : IS JESUS THE FIRSTBORN OVER ALL CREATION OR THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION?

The Greek for the phrase in question has just three words [ FIRSTBORN + ALL + CREATION ]. So the Greek text literally reads that Jesus is [the] ... "firstborn all creation".

Any prepositions (of, over, from, etc) here are added by the translators to render the expression understandable in English. While some translators add the proposition "over" the majority used "of"

(see various translations : https://biblehub.com/colossians/1-15.htm).

NOTE Neither choice excludes the possibility of Jesus still being a created being himself, ie the first (temporal) and/or preminent* created being.

To illustrate : In the same chapter Paul describes Jesus as "the firstborn of [from] the dead"? Obviously this references Jesus has being part of the group of resurrected ones. Jesus being the first (temporal) and /or the first ( most eminent or highest in rank). (see Col 1:18)

FIRSTBORN "OVER" CREATION ?



- Supremecy is absolute. The Father (YHWH) alone is identified in such a position; the title MOST HIGH is only ever associated in scripture with Jehovah (The Father) never the son (compare 1Cor 15:28).



CONCLUSION Whichever choice of preposition "firstborn of / fristborn over" it still allows for the subject to be part of the group being described. The rendering "firstborn OF" rather than "over" arguably better reflects the Father's unique position as supreme ruler if the universe.



RELATED POSTS

Was Jesus equal to his Father when he was in heaven in spirit form?
viewtopic.php?p=1115267#p1115267

[Brightfame52]

[Replying to 1213 in post #3]

That speaks to Christ as the Mediator Man 1 Tim 2:5

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

See Christ is Both God and Man[Mediator] and there are scriptures to prove both.

[JehovahsWitness]

WERE ALL THINGS CREATED "BY" OR "THROUGH" JESUS ?

"Through (dia) him God made all things" John 1:3 (GNT)
"all things were created by (dia) him" Col 1:16b (KJV)

The Greek word employed both in John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16(c) is "dia" "dia"). According to STRONG'S #1223 DIA is {quote} "a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act". Strong's offers a variety of english prepositions for dia, such as: by, for (cause), in, of, by reason of etc. Most English translations favor the less ambiguous "through" (over "by") which better communicates the notion of intermediate agency as per the root meaning of the word.

• See various translations
  http://biblehub.com/john/1-3.htm
  http://biblehub.com/colossians/1-16.htm

VARIOUS COMMENTARIES

• "[Dia]may be used as a "marker of instrumentality or circumstance whereby something is accomplished or effected, by, via, through ... [it] can also be a "marker of pers. agency, through, by" - A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG) page 225
  
  Theologian, Emil BRUNNER suggests that if Paul had wanted to identify Jesus as the Creator in Col 1:15-17, he would have employed the Greek word hUPO (by) used metaphorically in scripture to denote an action "under the power of", in this case, the initiator (compare Matthew 1:22; Matthew 2:15), stating: "...the world, it is true, was created THROUGH--DIA--the Son, but not BY--hUPO--the Son [...] The fact that between the Creator and the Creation there stands the Mediator of creation means that the world is an act of the freedom of God, that it does not proceed from the Logos." - "The Christian Doctrine of God." (Volume I), Emil BRUNNER, p. 308

FURTHER READING (dia)

1:16 Absence of "from" = CREATOR/initiator (the use of the prepositions)
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... s-116.html

Through DIA not by HUPO
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... -emil.html

dia
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... -post.html
http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebibl ... .htm#S1223

in him/through him
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... sions.html

Further reading : Who is Jesus Christ?
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2005681

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

COLOSSIANS 1 v15-17 , JESUS ROLE IN CREATION and ... "TRINITY TEXTS" DEBUNKED

[JehovahsWitness]

...There's no way around it, Jesus is God the Creator, for there's only One Creator.

Jesus is never referred to as The Creator.



How canon ISAIAH 44:24 be explained ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 01#p864001

Does Jesus collaboration with God in Creation make him a "Creator" or equal to God?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 15#p864015

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

COLOSSIANS 1 v15-17 , JESUS ROLE IN CREATION and ... "TRINITY TEXTS" DEBUNKED

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to 1213 in post #3]

That speaks to Christ as the Mediator Man 1 Tim 2:5

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

See Christ is Both God and Man[Mediator] and there are scriptures to prove both.

Hello ,

I would like to address this point but it is very hard for me to understand the logic you are using. Can you explain please how there being one God and One mediator lead you to conclude Jesus is both.



JW

[Brightfame52]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #8]

Yes He is, But Hes never referred to as not being the Creator. Col 1:16

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

This denotes His Instrumentality in Creation, His Assistance, Agency in Creation

If I hire a contractor to build my house, the agency of the contractor to execute the building of my House, he actually partook in the creation and building of my house