Jesus is God - Colossians 1:15-16

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Wootah
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Jesus is God - Colossians 1:15-16

Post #1

Post by Wootah »

The Son is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things in heaven and on earth were created,
things visible and invisible,
whether they are kings, lords, rulers, or powers.
All things have been created through him and for him.
17 He himself existed before anything else did,
and he holds all things together.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=ISV
If all things have been created through Jesus then Jesus cannot have been created.

If Jesus is not created he must be God.

Is this proof Jesus is God?

Youtube video:
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

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Re: Jesus is God - Colossians 1:15-16

Post #21

Post by Wootah »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2023 9:50 am The word co-creator is nowhere to be found in the bible.
Doesn't that defeat your arguments right there?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."

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Re: Jesus is God - Colossians 1:15-16

Post #22

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Wootah wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2023 8:07 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2023 9:50 am The word co-creator is nowhere to be found in the bible.
Doesn't that defeat your arguments right there?

How so?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Jesus is God - Colossians 1:15-16

Post #23

Post by Wootah »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2023 3:09 am
Wootah wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2023 8:07 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2023 9:50 am The word co-creator is nowhere to be found in the bible.
Doesn't that defeat your arguments right there?

How so?
If Jesus isn't a co-creator he is creator ie: God.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."

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Re: Jesus is God - Colossians 1:15-16

Post #24

Post by boatsnguitars »

Wootah wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2023 6:10 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2023 3:09 am
Wootah wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2023 8:07 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2023 9:50 am The word co-creator is nowhere to be found in the bible.
Doesn't that defeat your arguments right there?

How so?
If Jesus isn't a co-creator he is creator ie: God.
That doesn't make sense. Jesus was born in about 4 CE. He can't be both a person born after God created everything and creator of everything.
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: Jesus is God - Colossians 1:15-16

Post #25

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Wootah wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2023 6:10 am
If Jesus isn't a co-creator he is creator ie: God.
That is a false dichotomy*. Please re-read post #12



WHAT IS A FALSE DICHOTOMY* ?

*A false dichotomy, also referred to as false dilemma or false binary
Image



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Romans 14:8

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Re: Jesus is God - Colossians 1:15-16

Post #26

Post by Brightfame52 »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #19]

Here is scripture Col 1:16-17

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Also Jn 1:3

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

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Re: Jesus is God - Colossians 1:15-16

Post #27

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Brightfame52 wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2023 8:54 am [Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #19]

Here is scripture Col 1:16-17
Here is the explaination of the scripture : viewtopic.php?p=1134111#p1134111
Brightfame52 wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2023 8:54 am Also Jn 1:3
Also : viewtopic.php?p=1134111#p1134111
To learn more please go to other posts related to...

COLOSSIANS 1 v15-17 , JESUS ROLE IN CREATION and ... "TRINITY TEXTS" DEBUNKED
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Jesus is God - Colossians 1:15-16

Post #28

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #25]

Correct but participating in the process of creation does not merit the title of CREATOR. If you designed the house then as its architect you would retain the credit for its existence and as such are its "Creator". Indeed a contractor probably doesn't himself lay a single brick, but neither the contractor nor the bricklayer can take credit for being anything less than replaceable instruments through which the person who came up with the original concept and design, made its existence possible.

HOW IS IT THAT JESUS COULD PARTICIPATE IN THE PROCESS OF CREATION WITHOUT MERITING THE TITLE OF CREATOR?
Suppose the Father is the architect? Where does the Bible say that? Suppose Jesus is the contractor? Where does the Bible say that?

Can you explain the roles they both had and cite Bible verses to explain the role differences?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."

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Re: Jesus is God - Colossians 1:15-16

Post #29

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Wootah wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2023 6:04 pm Can you explain the roles they both had and cite Bible verses to explain the role differences?


JEHOVAH IS THE CREATOR OF ALL THAT EXISTS
REVELATION 4:11

“You are worthy, Jehovah our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things, and because of your will they came into existence and were created.”

JEHOVAH ALONE HAS THE POSITION OF CREATOR SINCE HE NEEDED NO ASSISTANCE AND IS THE SOURCE AND ORIGINATOR OF ALL LIFE
ISAIAH 44: 24

"Thus said Jehovah, thy redeemer, And thy framer from the womb: 'I am Jehovah, doing all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, Spreading out the earth -- who is with Me?" - Young's Literal Translation
NEHEMIAH 9: 6 - American Standard Version

Thou art Jehovah, even thou alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and all things that are thereon, the seas and all that is in them, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee

ISAIAH 44: 24

With you [YHWH]is the source of life; By your light we can see light



=================================================================

JESUS IS JEHOVAH'S FIRST CREATION


PROVERBE 8:22
Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation

JESUS IS YHWH JEHOVAH'S WORKER
PROVERB 8:30

Then I was beside him as a master worker. I was the one he was especially fond of day by day; I rejoiced before him all the time
...AN INSTRUMENT THROUGH WHICH THE FATHER'S CREATIVITY IS EXPRESSED
COLOSSIANS 1:16b

All other things have been created through him and for him.

JESUS FOLLOWS INSTRUCTIONS AND CAN THEREFORE TAKE NO CREDIT AS A CREATOR OR A CO-CREATOR
JOHN 8:28

Jesus then said: “After you have lifted up the Son of man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing of my own initiative; but just as the Father taught me, I speak these things.




To learn more please go to other posts related to...

COLOSSIANS 1 v15-17 , JESUS ROLE IN CREATION and ...THE 7 CREATIVE DAYS OF GENESIS
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Jesus is God - Colossians 1:15-16

Post #30

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #29]

On proverbs 8:22: https://www.str.org/w/does-proverbs-8-2 ... s-created-

If God produced wisdom do you think God lacked wisdom beforehand?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."

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