Is God ultimately responsible for mankind's sins?

[otseng]

God created mankind.
Mankind sins.
Therefore, God is ultimately responsible for mankind's sins.

Is this argument acceptable or not? Why?

[bernee51]

God created mankind.
Mankind sins.
Therefore, God is ultimately responsible for mankind's sins.

Is this argument acceptable or not? Why?

You basic premises are not necessarily correct, this however does not make for an invalid argument.

However, no the argument is not acceptable to me.

There is no proof of the existence of god nor that man was created by such a being.

Sin is a concept that requires a god in the first place (i.e., to determine what is a sin), so in that sense the argument begs the question somewhat.

In fact the existence of evil (sin?) is a very good argument for the logical impossibility of the christian god.

regards

bernie

[otseng]

There is no proof of the existence of god nor that man was created by such a being.

Sin is a concept that requires a god in the first place (i.e., to determine what is a sin), so in that sense the argument begs the question somewhat.

For the purpose of this topic, let's assume the presuppositions are true.

In fact the existence of evil (sin?) is a very good argument for the logical impossibility of the christian god.

Feel free to start a thread to debate that.

[bernee51]

There is no proof of the existence of god nor that man was created by such a being.

Sin is a concept that requires a god in the first place (i.e., to determine what is a sin), so in that sense the argument begs the question somewhat.

For the purpose of this topic, let's assume the presuppositions are true.

In that case I wil say the argument is acceptable

In fact the existence of evil (sin?) is a very good argument for the logical impossibility of the christian god.

Feel free to start a thread to debate that.

done

[otseng]

This question was also brought up in Does God have the right to kill humans?

In that thread, I stated that God is not ultimately responsible for mankind's sins/action and I gave the following illustration:

For example, if my son robbed a bank, even though I brought him into this world (and possibly even greatly affected his level of responsibility and sense of morality), I would not be held responsible for his actions. In a court of law, I would not be dragged in and be accused of any guilt. The only way I would be charged is if I was complicit in the robbery itself.

Another thing is that God created all of us with a free will. We can freely choose to sin or not to sin. It is ultimately us that decide what to do, not God. God did not preprogram us to only act one certain way in any situation. If we decide what our actions would be, then we are responsible for our actions. Therefore mankind is ultimately responsible for their sins.

[ST88]

God created mankind.
Mankind sins.
Therefore, God is ultimately responsible for mankind's sins.

Is this argument acceptable or not? Why?

It really depends on the definition of "sin". If sin=actions in the absence of God, then the syllogism fails. If sin=actions against God, then it succeeds.

The former assumes that mankind can act independently of God and has at least a partial nature that is independent of God. It is therefore man that makes the decision to sin despite God. The latter makes no such assumption and must blame God for mankind's problems.


How about this:

God created mankind
and
All creators are responsible for their creations
therefore
God is responsible for mankind

Mankind sins
and
God is responsible for mankind
therefore
God is responsible for mankind's sins

This leaves out the requirement for a definition of sin.

However,

God created mankind
and
Mankind has free will
therefore
God gave man free will

Mankind sins
and
God gave man free will
therefore
God gave man the free will to sin

Holiness and sin cannot co-exist
and
God gave man the free will to sin
therefore
God gave man the free will to be without holiness

God is all-holy (sin cannot be in the presence of God)
and
God gave man the free will to be without holiness
therefore
God gave man the ability to be without God

[bernee51]

Another thing is that God created all of us with a free will. We can freely choose to sin or not to sin. It is ultimately us that decide what to do, not God. God did not preprogram us to only act one certain way in any situation. If we decide what our actions would be, then we are responsible for our actions. Therefore mankind is ultimately responsible for their sins.

Been thinking about this post friend...you did not include 'free will' in you original postulation ergo it cannot be taken into account. God (if such a being existed) is still responisble for mankind's sins (if there were any such thing as 'sin')

Your original premise was that god created man (one assumes warts and all).

To introduce 'free will' is a cop out many 'of faith' use when it is really an illusion.

The christian religion makes an offer that cannot be refused - believe or burn - some free will!

regards

[dangerdan]

God created mankind.
Mankind sins.
Therefore, God is ultimately responsible for mankind's sins.

I see this as a logically sound way of looking at the question. Let us not forget that the definition of God usually includes the assumption that he is all-knowing. So when we talk about God giving us “free will”, then let us not forget that God would have known that it was all going to go pair shaped (with his curse) when that dastardly Adam and Eve decided to exercise this “free will”, and therefore showed an astounding lack of foresight!

Further, it seems some Christians have a double standard with exactly how much responsibility and ownership God has over humans. In the threads asking whether God has the right to kill humans, some where arguing he can because he basically owns us and is responsible for us. But now in this thread, some are saying that he doesn’t really own us and we can do what we want. So either a Christian should say “He is responsible for his creation, and boy did he stuff up!” or the Christian can say “He is not responsible for his creation, so what the heck does he think he’s doing killing all these people!”

I found after pondering the “text book” definition of the utterance “God”, we can show that this “God” is not logically constant with what we see in the world around us. It’s what moved me from agnosticism to atheism. So I can’t weight to check out your other new thread.

[otseng]

Been thinking about this post friend...you did not include 'free will' in you original postulation ergo it cannot be taken into account.

But, is it possible to sin without free will? How then would you define sin without the free will involved?

Further, it seems some Christians have a double standard with exactly how much responsibility and ownership God has over humans. In the threads asking whether God has the right to kill humans, some where arguing he can because he basically owns us and is responsible for us.

Nowhere has it been argued that God is responsible for our actions. True, God owns us. But does it mean that God is responsible for what we do?

[Jian^sia]

I say God is not ultimately responsible for our sins.
When we watch harmful TV shows, can we say that the creator of the TV is responsible for all the inappropriate materials?
Let us look to the cause of sin. The Devil.
Or should we blame Adam. Or Eve.
Let's not shift the blame for this was what happened in the beginning.

Unfortunately, we have only ourselves to blame. For though we were born with sin. We also unwillingly chose to sin.