Jesus is Imaginary!

[POI]

For debate: (Question 1) Is he? Which conclusion requires less spin? He's real <or> he's imaginary?

Going back 5 years or so, I remember a video I watched. It was in the early days of me exchanging with theists on such debate sites. I just watched it again, in the hopes that my many exchanges with theists have since made this video seem quite simple/sophomoric/lame. And yet, maybe not-so-much?

Below are some of the apologetic answers Christians give, when applying petitionary and/or intercessory prayer for Jesus to appear -- (I added some more as well, above and beyond the video):

1) It would take away our free will for him to appear.
2) Jesus does not do anything which is not already in his will.
3) Jesus's ways are higher than ours. We cannot understand his ways.
4) He does appear to me. I hear his voice every day. Maybe he will for you too someday.
5) I saw Jesus appear in my toast/other.
6) Jesus no longer appears like he did back then.
7) His appearance would take away faith, and Jesus wants your faith.
8) He just hasn't answered your prayers yet.
9) You are not praying right or sincerely.
10) Prayer doesn't work like that.
11) This is not what scripture actually says.
12) Jesus's answer is sometimes "no".
13) Jesus is not a Genie in a bottle.

For debate: (Question 2) I may have missed some...? Christians, which excuses or answers do you give here?

Here is the video in question:



For debate: (Question 3) Since Jesus is not appearing to me when asked, isn't it the most common-sense answer to conclude "Jesus is imaginary"? If not, why not?

[1213]

Because the Bible gives false information.

Sorry, I have no intelligent reason to believe that.

1) How is the Bible proof of God's existence?
2) If this were true, he would have reached me.
3) Sure, why not, as long as I know it is from God. And since God has the ability to convince me, and wants a relationship, and I have asked for one, I then return the question back to YOU. Why hasn't he ever contacted me?

1) Because it has information/ideas that I don't think humans would have without God.
2) I think He has done that. You can read the Bible and know His message to you.

[1213]

...Bible says, for instance that Jesus would comeback before they were all dead and the Sanhedrin would see him come back. ..

Please show the scripture where he says that?

[TRANSPONDER]

...Bible says, for instance that Jesus would comeback before they were all dead and the Sanhedrin would see him come back. ..

Please show the scripture where he says that?

Haven't we done this before?

Matthew 16 28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Mark 14. 62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

[POI]

Because the Bible gives false information.

Sorry, I have no intelligent reason to believe that.

Yes, you do, unless you can successfully refute P1) thru P6) from post 55.

1) How is the Bible proof of God's existence?
2) If this were true, he would have reached me.
3) Sure, why not, as long as I know it is from God. And since God has the ability to convince me, and wants a relationship, and I have asked for one, I then return the question back to YOU. Why hasn't he ever contacted me?

1) Because it has information/ideas that I don't think humans would have without God.
2) I think He has done that. You can read the Bible and know His message to you.

1) Such as?
2) Ancients wrote stuff. That's all we know for sure. The rest, you need to demonstrate.
3) By your logic, I could write a self-help book, and when someone reads it 100 years from now, the reader can think I'm "contacting" them. Second attempt... Why hasn't he ever contacted me?

[TRANSPONDER]

I have again to give kudos to those joining the barriers for theism, God and the Bible when Theist apologetics seem thin on the ground. Yet the apologetics are none too good.

As is usual, anything about Genesis, the 2nd coming or resurrection (for example) may get a flurry of trying to make a case by evidence and reason, then denial of science, reason and even what the Bible says, and just now an amazing amount of irrelevance. Just trying to score a face -saving pointless draw, I'd guess as I can see no point in these discussions about not even angels dancing on the head of pins, but Klingons, as it seems to have almost no relevance to the Bible and religion -debate.

It is apologetics of third kind, - sauce. Which can manifest in timewasting, abuse, trying to scrape a draw, running away with a last parting shot or scoring any point as a one shot win "I showed he was wrong there, so he must be wrong about everything else". Even if it is a claim that doesn't convince anyone else.

But as i say. the Bible -debate is good enough but I find the study of the religious mindset and methods even more fascinating.

[1213]

1) Because it has information/ideas that I don't think humans would have without God.
2) I think He has done that. You can read the Bible and know His message to you.

1) Such as?
2) Ancients wrote stuff. That's all we know for sure. The rest, you need to demonstrate.
3) By your logic, I could write a self-help book, and when someone reads it 100 years from now, the reader can think I'm "contacting" them. Second attempt... Why hasn't he ever contacted me?

1) For example the idea of single original continent in the beginning. How Jews would lose their land and later get it back as it is happening nowadays. Also the idea that people should love their enemies is in my opinion something that would not come from humans.

2) 3) You may think the book is not good enough, but it is nevertheless a way to contact you. And, one could also say that God has sent me to help you to understand it. Therefore, I think you can't say God has not contacted. You can only say that He has not contacted in a way that you would like.

[1213]

...Bible says, for instance that Jesus would comeback before they were all dead and the Sanhedrin would see him come back. ..

Please show the scripture where he says that?

Haven't we done this before?

Matthew 16 28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Mark 14. 62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Thank you. This helps, because now I can show that those things already happened or can still be true.

Matthew 16:28 came true in here:

And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, and James, and John his brother, and doth bring them up to a high mount by themselves, and he was transfigured before them, and his face shone as the sun, and his garments did become white as the light, and lo, appear to them did Moses and Elijah, talking together with him.
Matt. 17:1-3

And Mark 14:62, by what the Bible tells, all will see Jesus coming, also those who have already died, because Bible tells everyone will be raised to judgment.

and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls--according to their works;
Rev. 20:12

[TRANSPONDER]

...Bible says, for instance that Jesus would comeback before they were all dead and the Sanhedrin would see him come back. ..

Please show the scripture where he says that?

Haven't we done this before?

Matthew 16 28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Mark 14. 62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Thank you. This helps, because now I can show that those things already happened or can still be true.

Matthew 16:28 came true in here:

And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, and James, and John his brother, and doth bring them up to a high mount by themselves, and he was transfigured before them, and his face shone as the sun, and his garments did become white as the light, and lo, appear to them did Moses and Elijah, talking together with him.
Matt. 17:1-3

And Mark 14:62, by what the Bible tells, all will see Jesus coming, also those who have already died, because Bible tells everyone will be raised to judgment.

and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls--according to their works;
Rev. 20:12

Brickdust my dear 1213 and I forgive you for trying to throw it in my eyes as you evidently know not what you do.

The transfiguration is nothing to do with the 2nd coming as Jesus tells the Sanhedrin it is going to happen and they will see itr after the transfiguration. In fact I believe your Matrk quote comes from later.... damnit you are near insulting me as I quoted that to you as Jesus telling the Sanhedrin he would be coming agaiun - just before he gets tried and executed.

And you are struggling for evidence when you quote the visionary fantasies of Revelation as though the were evidence of anything let alone everything.

And while the only prophecy that holds a little water is the return to Jerusalem, that was always a self - fulfiller as the Jews always wanted to and Balfour believed the prophecy, I seemed to recall. So it could hardly Not happen. But the rest...like the 2nd coming, we are still waiting.

[POI]

1213, you skipped the most important part:

1213 -> Sorry, I have no intelligent reason to believe that.
POI -> Yes, you do, unless you can successfully refute P1) thru P6) from post 55.

Can you? If not, my position stands unattested. In which case, your arguments below become irrelevant.

1) Because it has information/ideas that I don't think humans would have without God.
2) I think He has done that. You can read the Bible and know His message to you.

1) Such as?
2) Ancients wrote stuff. That's all we know for sure. The rest, you need to demonstrate.
3) By your logic, I could write a self-help book, and when someone reads it 100 years from now, the reader can think I'm "contacting" them. Second attempt... Why hasn't he ever contacted me?

1) For example the idea of single original continent in the beginning. How Jews would lose their land and later get it back as it is happening nowadays. Also the idea that people should love their enemies is in my opinion something that would not come from humans.

2) 3) You may think the book is not good enough, but it is nevertheless a way to contact you. And, one could also say that God has sent me to help you to understand it. Therefore, I think you can't say God has not contacted. You can only say that He has not contacted in a way that you would like.

Addressing the irrelevant, until you dismantle P1 thru P6.

1) So your argument sounds like you believe the Bible because it is scientifically accurate, it's prophetic, and the 'golden rule' is offered?
2) 3) Then my self-help book is contacting people 100 years from now. And if the person, 100 years from now does not think so, another person will tell them so. And of course, the unbeliever cannot refute it, because it's unfalsifiable.

[1213]

Addressing the irrelevant, until you dismantle P1 thru P6.

I think I dismantled them.

P1) Does God exist?
-> Yes.
P2) Does God want a relationship with all, especially the ones who seek him?
-> Yes, that is why we have the Bible.
P3) Is God capable of communicating?
-> Bible is a proof for that.
P4) Can God communicate his message in a way in which the recipient could no longer deny?
-> It would be ridiculous to deny Bible exists.
P5) Have I asked for this communication earnestly and repetitively from both myself as well as from others?
-> And you can read the Bible and know His message to you.
P6) Does the Bible state God answers the call to all who seek him?
-> I think He has done that. How else would you explain that I am here answering to your questions?