Please help me understand Christianity

[Compassionist]

The Biblical God allegedly made all the angels and all the biological organisms including the first pair of humans. Why didn't God make everything he made equally all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful? That would have prevented all suffering, inequality, injustice, and deaths. All-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful beings harm no one through malevolence or ignorance or incompetence. Also, no one and nothing can harm them. That would have been the best outcome for everyone. Instead of doing this, despite being allegedly all-knowing and all-powerful, the Biblical God allegedly made Adam and Eve ignorant about Good and Evil and allegedly told them not to eat the fruits from the Tree of Knowledge. How can eating fruits make one knowledgeable about good and evil? When Adam and Eve allegedly ate the forbidden fruits, God punished them and all the other biological organisms by kicking them out of Eden. He also punished all of their descendants by not letting them live in Eden. Why punish all the other organisms for Adam and Eve's mistake? Why punish their descendants? He also punished Eve and all her daughters with painful childbirth. How is any of these actions fair and morally correct? I consider all of these actions by the Biblical God to be totally evil. Also, the whole idea of Jesus dying for only three days in order to save us from an eternity in hell is absurd. Why didn't God just forgive Adam and Eve? How can the death of one individual be the redemption of all Christians? What about all the non-humans and non-Christians? Jesus was dead for only three days. He didn't spend an eternity in hell. How can being dead for only three days be the substitution for people being in hell for an eternity? Do non-human organisms also go to hell for not accepting Jesus as their Saviour? What about those who died before Jesus allegedly died on the cross? What happens to people who never heard of Jesus or have heard of Jesus but believe that he is not the Saviour (e.g. Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jains, Sikhs, Agnostics, Atheists, etc.) How can it be ethical to punish people with eternity in hell for not accepting Jesus as Saviour? Christianity does not make any sense at all. Please help me understand Christianity. Thank you very much.

[The Tanager]

Thank you for your honesty. Pardon the follow up question(s) and comments, but I guess curiosity kills the cat....

1) Were you a God believer (before or after) you delved into the Kalam argument, the fine-tuning argument, the morality argument, the consciousness argument, etc?

No need to ask for pardon, I don’t think I’ve used up my nine lives yet. My answer to your question is before.

If before, then, of course, the said topics are irrelevant to discuss.

Why? This seems like a genetic fallacy. The truth of a worldview is not dependent on how anyone defending that worldview first came to believe it is true. I believed in the great ability of science to give us truth about reality before delving into philosophical arguments for the reliability of science to give us truth about reality as well. This doesn’t mean arguments defending the reliability of science are irrelevant to that belief being true and, therefore, fail because I first believed in science via an appeal to authority, subjective experiences of science working, etc.

2) If all said topics were to be debunked, to your own personal satisfaction, would you still be a Jesus/God believer? Or maybe then just a "generic deist", other?

If all were debunked, then I would neither be a Christian, nor a theist, nor a deist (unless I became convinced of different arguments that lead to deism that I’m currently unaware of). Although I became a Christian through personal experiences rather than these arguments, I remain a Christian, in large part, through these arguments because I think personal experiences can have rational defeaters.

3) Does the link to my "hypothesis topic" ring any 'truth' to maybe why you believe, or not at all? Just curious...

If I understand you correctly, this is what I said earlier about confirmation bias. I think that occurs in many theists (Christians included) as well as non-theists. I think both of these groups, if they are making errors, are type 1 errors. I think those with skeptical bents (in which I include myself) from both camps are less prone to this, so I don’t feel it has a ring of truth to why I believe at all, although I could be wrong.

Sorry to butt in, but I'd like to engage here. Yes, 'free will' has multiple meanings, depending on context. I'll start with one:

After evidence has been presented to you, are you free to either (be convinced or not convinced) of what the evidence demonstrates? I'd say no. But, I do think you are somewhat free to avoid the suggested evidence, which presents as a protection mechanism to preserve a wanted existing belief. Example, a fundamentalist Christian refusing to take courses in evolutionary biology, and currently thinks evolution is only a 'theory'.

So, are you saying that you’d opt for something like my (2) above in my post to Compassionist? That our wills are determined in some areas, but not others, like not being able to avoid the suggested evidence, but can freely choose to do so?

[Compassionist]

My definition of free will is a will that is free from determinants and constraints. Do you agree? If not, what is your definition? I think it is pointless to debate free will when it is obvious that I don't have free will.

Let’s work with that definition. If we feel we need to adjust as we go along, we can do that as well. I see 3 logical options:

(1) A will is completely free from any determinant/constraint
(2) A will is determined/constrained in some areas but not others
(3) A will is completely determined/constrained in every area

Do you agree? If not, why not?

We are just talking about logical possibilities right now, like if we talked about cats and the color black.

(1) A cat can be completely black in color
(2) A cat can be a mix of black and another color(s)
(3) A cat can be completely non-black in its color(s)

As to the new critiques you’ve raised (does Jesus answer prayer? and predestination) and other ones already raised, I think they are all great questions and I’d love to talk to you about them, but I think productive discussion must be focused, so I like to take things one at a time. Would you honor me with allowing us to do that? You are free (or are you...) to insist we just tackle everything all at once, of course, and I'll try to honor that, although it will be more time-consuming between posts.

I have no demands and no expectations of you or anyone else. I agree with the logical options you have listed.

[POI]

My answer to your question is before.

Then none of the given reasons is why you became a believer. What reason(s) made you become a believer? Personal experience(s), other? And if so, what exactly?

The truth of a worldview is not dependent on how anyone defending that worldview first came to believe it is true. I believed in the great ability of science to give us truth about reality before delving into philosophical arguments for the reliability of science to give us truth about reality as well. This doesn’t mean arguments defending the reliability of science are irrelevant to that belief being true and, therefore, fail because I first believed in science via an appeal to authority, subjective experiences of science working, etc.

The given reasons(s) you provided 'strengthened' your a priori belief in God, (as highlighted in bold below). But I'd first like to know the reason(s) you became a believer.

If all were debunked, then I would neither be a Christian, nor a theist, nor a deist (unless I became convinced of different arguments that lead to deism that I’m currently unaware of). Although I became a Christian through personal experiences rather than these arguments, I remain a Christian, in large part, through these arguments because I think personal experiences can have rational defeaters.

******************************

If I understand you correctly, this is what I said earlier about confirmation bias. I think that occurs in many theists (Christians included) as well as non-theists. I think both of these groups, if they are making errors, are type 1 errors. I think those with skeptical bents (in which I include myself) from both camps are less prone to this, so I don’t feel it has a ring of truth to why I believe at all, although I could be wrong.

We can discuss conformation bias later (i.e.) the Kalam, and all others mentioned. But I still think the reason for belief is what I mentioned in the other thread. And I would love to have this belief of mine challenged.

So, are you saying that you’d opt for something like my (2) above in my post to Compassionist? That our wills are determined in some areas, but not others, like not being able to avoid the suggested evidence, but can freely choose to do so?

Sure, why not? We have the choice to refuse new given attempted evidence because we already know if might change our mind (i.e.) close my eyes, shut my ears, turn my brain off, etc..... Though 'hard determinism' seems hard to refute, but I'll go with this tentative conclusion for now....

[Data]

Then none of the given reasons is why you became a believer. What reason(s) made you become a believer? Personal experience(s), other? And if so, what exactly?

Still at it? Still trying to make people justify their beliefs to you? It's a despicable, ignorant, hypocritical tactic in my opinion.

[POI]

Then none of the given reasons is why you became a believer. What reason(s) made you become a believer? Personal experience(s), other? And if so, what exactly?

Still at it? Still trying to make people justify their beliefs to you? It's a despicable, ignorant, hypocritical tactic in my opinion.

LOL! Asking what you believe, and why, is none of those things.

[Data]

Then none of the given reasons is why you became a believer. What reason(s) made you become a believer? Personal experience(s), other? And if so, what exactly?

Still at it? Still trying to make people justify their beliefs to you? It's a despicable, ignorant, hypocritical tactic in my opinion.

LOL! Asking what you believe, and why, is none of those things.

Really?! Sorry. My bad. I thought you were getting ready to pounce. Drag Tan through your own little inquisition. It must have just been a flashback. But I bet you won't do that now, huh? It's a good thing I was here. I'm like Trans. A hero. Even using my evil for good. You getting' any of this?

[1213]

Yes, God commands his followers to rape. I am quoting from: https://www.evilbible.com/evil-bible-ho ... the-bible/

There is no scripture that says someone must rape. If there would be, you could show it here. It is interesting that you seem to think marriage is rape.

The verses you quoted about the formation of land does not match what we know from science.

If so, I don’t see any reason why “science” could not be wrong. The whole history of science is full of errors.

Why would making all beings equally all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful and the owner of an infinite number of universes each be not good? Such beings would never harm anyone through malevolence, ignorance or incompetence. Such beings would not be harmed by anyone or anything either. It's the perfect way to prevent all suffering, inequality, injustice, and deaths

The problem is, not all want to be good. You would take their freedom and make them miserable.

…you are not actually free even though you think you are free.

I think I only told that I have free will, which is true, I can want freely whatever I want.

There are contradictory verses in the Bible about hell. I am quoting from https://www.openbible.info/topics/hell

You probably didn't even read those scriptures. I don’t think there was any contradiction. If you think there is, please show two scriptures that are in contradiction.

God chooses people to send to heaven or hell. God predestines people to be saved or not saved. I am quoting from https://www.openbible.info/topics/predestination

Yes, it is predestined that righteous into eternal life. But it is not predestined who will want to be righteous. You have chance, but I doubt you will want it.

Our choices are not free.

If your choices are not free, who made you write this stuff? I would rather speak with him directly.

I am quoting some verses about burnt offering from: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Burnt-Offering

I think those are rules for how to do it, not demand to do it. Except maybe in the case of Genesis 22:2-8, but, in that case it was not meant to really happen.

You claimed that the Biblical God created life. Please prove that your claim is true. According to Hinduism, Brahma created the universe and living things, not the Biblical God.

Sorry, that remains a matter of belief. I believe Bible God did it because He shows great wisdom and understanding in the Bible.

[Compassionist]

Yes, God commands his followers to rape. I am quoting from: https://www.evilbible.com/evil-bible-ho ... the-bible/

There is no scripture that says someone must rape. If there would be, you could show it here. It is interesting that you seem to think marriage is rape.

The verses you quoted about the formation of land does not match what we know from science.

If so, I don’t see any reason why “science” could not be wrong. The whole history of science is full of errors.

Why would making all beings equally all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful and the owner of an infinite number of universes each be not good? Such beings would never harm anyone through malevolence, ignorance or incompetence. Such beings would not be harmed by anyone or anything either. It's the perfect way to prevent all suffering, inequality, injustice, and deaths

The problem is, not all want to be good. You would take their freedom and make them miserable.

…you are not actually free even though you think you are free.

I think I only told that I have free will, which is true, I can want freely whatever I want.

There are contradictory verses in the Bible about hell. I am quoting from https://www.openbible.info/topics/hell

You probably didn't even read those scriptures. I don’t think there was any contradiction. If you think there is, please show two scriptures that are in contradiction.

God chooses people to send to heaven or hell. God predestines people to be saved or not saved. I am quoting from https://www.openbible.info/topics/predestination

Yes, it is predestined that righteous into eternal life. But it is not predestined who will want to be righteous. You have chance, but I doubt you will want it.

Our choices are not free.

If your choices are not free, who made you write this stuff? I would rather speak with him directly.

I am quoting some verses about burnt offering from: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Burnt-Offering

I think those are rules for how to do it, not demand to do it. Except maybe in the case of Genesis 22:2-8, but, in that case it was not meant to really happen.

You claimed that the Biblical God created life. Please prove that your claim is true. According to Hinduism, Brahma created the universe and living things, not the Biblical God.

Sorry, that remains a matter of belief. I believe Bible God did it because He shows great wisdom and understanding in the Bible.

I quoted the verses about rape and you just deny it. I quoted the contradictory verses about hell and you just deny it. I am not going to waste any more time discussing with you ever again because you deny facts.

[otseng]

[Replying to Data in post #36]

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[POI]

Then none of the given reasons is why you became a believer. What reason(s) made you become a believer? Personal experience(s), other? And if so, what exactly?

Still at it? Still trying to make people justify their beliefs to you? It's a despicable, ignorant, hypocritical tactic in my opinion.

LOL! Asking what you believe, and why, is none of those things.

Really?! Sorry. My bad. I thought you were getting ready to pounce. Drag Tan through your own little inquisition. It must have just been a flashback. But I bet you won't do that now, huh? It's a good thing I was here. I'm like Trans. A hero. Even using my evil for good. You getting' any of this?

All interlocutors are free to response, or not respond, to whatever questions are asked in this debate forum. Asking why one believes is a logical part of this arena.