Omniscience, Free Will, and the "Eternal Present"

[Dimmesdale]

How can God know everything, and us have libertarian free will?

I say it is impossible.

But I want to delve specifically into the idea that God transcends time, and that this, somehow, explains how it could be possible.

Honestly, I believe that this idea to a large extent tainted my understanding of just how God "transcends" time. For I thought that God's transcendence of time includes the future as well as the present. That, in effect, time has elapsed for God, and he is "situated" in what I can only describe as "after-time", if you catch my drift.

But, no. If God exists he is experiencing, at this very time, the same time we are. Only that for him it is all tantamount to a single moment, instead of going by a succession. Still, nonetheless, God is still "experiencing" right now, the same time we are. It is not all "over" for him, because then it would be over for us! Or, at least, it would demonstrate that for us things are set, that things cannot be changed, even by our free will. Why? Because God already knows it! Well, I suppose free will still exists in the bounds set by our ignorance of God's knowledge. But that still seems like a sorry state of affairs. How could God, knowing everything from all eternity, still allow free will to exist? Wouldn't it be a complete obstacle to his very decree? His Providence? His own ETERNITY?

I know this idea has been rehashed ad infinitum but I wonder how God really knows, without his knowledge being basically an iron embankment preventing any flow of water from the reservoire of (libertarian) free will. It really seems obvious and absurd at the same time. I wonder how I could have ever believed it.

[TheRootOfDavid]

How can God know everything, and us have libertarian free will?

No one has any kind of free will.
Not even God.

[The Tanager]

[Replying to Dimmesdale in post #1]

I think there is a difference between knowing how everything turns out and causing everything to turn out that way. One can see what all happens and not have been the cause of that happening.

[Dimmesdale]

[Replying to Dimmesdale in post #1]

I think there is a difference between knowing how everything turns out and causing everything to turn out that way. One can see what all happens and not have been the cause of that happening.

How does one see what all happens? What does that mean?

Either God is "outside of time" (something that I have not heard a very adequate explanation as to what this means from people like Catholics) and therefore time has totally elapsed. In which case He Already KNOWS what you will do (because outside of time you have already done it!) -- so in what sense are you free? Or better put, how do you have libertarian free will specifically? You may still be free on this reading. But you could not have really done otherwise.

Or, and this to me seems more rational, there is no libertarian free will. God knows the end because unlike us he can calculate the sum total of causes and knows what will happen. We may still have free will, but only in the compatibilist sense.

As far as I am concerned these are the only two rational approaches. I do not see a third.

[The Tanager]

How does one see what all happens? What does that mean?

Either God is "outside of time" (something that I have not heard a very adequate explanation as to what this means from people like Catholics) and therefore time has totally elapsed. In which case He Already KNOWS what you will do (because outside of time you have already done it!) -- so in what sense are you free? Or better put, how do you have libertarian free will specifically? You may still be free on this reading. But you could not have really done otherwise.

Or, and this to me seems more rational, there is no libertarian free will. God knows the end because unlike us he can calculate the sum total of causes and knows what will happen. We may still have free will, but only in the compatibilist sense.

As far as I am concerned these are the only two rational approaches. I do not see a third.

But in already knowing what you will do, who is doing the doing? You are. That's the free will. God would know what you freely choose to do. You could not have done otherwise, not because God knew you were going to do it, but because you can't do otherwise than what you actually do. Your agency caused the action; not God's knowledge. God's knowledge comes because of what you choose to do, and if you had done otherwise, God would have known that, not vice versa.

[Dimmesdale]

But in already knowing what you will do, who is doing the doing? You are. That's the free will.

I do not doubt that that is free. That there are such free decisions. But for a decision to really have the potential of "going otherwise", there can't be the constraint of "oh, but I already know what you will decide upon." To have that constraint and to still insist you could have done otherwise, is insane to me. It goes against basic common sense in my view. There is no room for movement. Yes, you do what you do. But you could not have realistically have done otherwise.

To say that God simply knows because he is removed from time.... that it all depends on your willing power in the present moment... I get where that is coming from but I don't buy it. If God knows future-wise, and also presently, then that is a marriage in hell for lib free will. How could you put those things together? Either God knows in the future, or he is present in the here-and-now. Present in the here-and-now he could not know. So God is far removed. Transcendent. I believe God is also immanent.

[The Tanager]

I do not doubt that that is free. That there are such free decisions. But for a decision to really have the potential of "going otherwise", there can't be the constraint of "oh, but I already know what you will decide upon." To have that constraint and to still insist you could have done otherwise, is insane to me. It goes against basic common sense in my view. There is no room for movement. Yes, you do what you do. But you could not have realistically have done otherwise.

To say that God simply knows because he is removed from time.... that it all depends on your willing power in the present moment... I get where that is coming from but I don't buy it. If God knows future-wise, and also presently, then that is a marriage in hell for lib free will. How could you put those things together? Either God knows in the future, or he is present in the here-and-now. Present in the here-and-now he could not know. So God is far removed. Transcendent. I believe God is also immanent.

But knowing what we end up choosing isn't a constraint on whether we choose that or not. You could have done otherwise. If you chose to do otherwise, then God would have known that. So, you can have done otherwise, if you had chosen to, but (of course) you can't do otherwise than you choose to do. This allows free will and allows for omniscience and immanence.

[Dimmesdale]

But knowing what we end up choosing isn't a constraint on whether we choose that or not.

It is to me. You are dealing with two realities. Two realities that cannot reconcile one with the other. The first reality is the factual state of the choice reached. And the second reality is the factual state of uncertainty here-and-now. You cannot weld them together in my view. If the present time is Indeterminate, there can be no condition limiting its Indeterminacy to this or that. That Grounds it in the dirt. This is why I bring up Immanence and Transcendence. If you want to say God is both, that he is Here-Now and simultaneously in the "Beyond" then... there has to be a congruity, and there just isn't in this case. The future may not constrain a person's will but it delimits it withing the field of possibility, closing off the possibility even if the person wanted the alternative. A contradiction, I know. But that is the fundamental absurdity we are dealing with here. Thus I reject it.

[The Tanager]

The second reality’s factual state of uncertainty isn’t an objective fact, but a subjective one. The factual state of my knowledge of what you will do next week is uncertainty, but not an omniscient timeless being.

It is the future that delimits the present. That means the possibility is delimited in the future, not delimited in the present. The present possibility is closed off in the future, not the present. Someone knowing the future isn't closing off the possibility because that knowledge is caused by the future action, not vice versa. The person cannot have the alternative of what that person actually chooses. There is no absurdity in this that I can see.

[Dimmesdale]

[Replying to The Tanager in post #9]

Well, I guess I can't argue with what you have written. At least, I don't know how to. All I can say is that I detect some rift, something that's not right.... A type of "cleavage" if you will in the subjectivity of God that compromises his unity and perception of unity.... If God has these two windows of reality, they need to come "together" as it were in the Eternal Now or however you think of it.... Kind of like your two eyes forming a single image.

I guess I'll give up. You've given me some food for thought though. Thanks.