Does Hell Exist?

[Data]

The question for debate is does hell exist? If so, what does the Bible teach hell is?

[Difflugia]

Or it wasnt Samuel at all but a demon impersonating Samuel.

A demon that somebody made up? There's no demon mentioned anywhere near this story. You don't seem to like it when I call you out, so perhaps you'd respond to an occasionally more eloquent member of the forum:

I don't care about your church doctrine . If a reading is unsupported by scripture it has no place in a debate forum. If you have bible passages to support your "doctrine" present them.

Your theological position seems to be that you're OK with scripturally derived doctrine, but only until that scripture conflicts with some personal belief that is more deeply cherished than the Bible itself.

In any case, again so far I see a second response but still no scripture; would you feel more comfortable over at C&A where actual knowledge of the contents of the bible is less important?

"And Samuel said to Saul, 'Why have you disturbed me, to bring me up?'"

That's the narrator of the Bible telling you that Samuel is speaking. Is that not the Word of Jehovah? I wouldn't think that one of Jehovah's Witnesses would deign to tell Jehovah that He's wrong.

[1213]

Yes, his body was dead, but not necessary his soul.

As far as I can tell, that's the orthodox position. Do you disagree?

I believe it is so that his body was dead, but soul not.

[onewithhim]

Jesus taught no such thing as a literal fire where people are tortured forever.

Luke 16:23.

In addition, an angel teaches that in Revelation 14:11.

Another symbolic verse. Can you imagine literal smoke ascending forever? That would mean that spirits can feel pain, and in addition to that, their screams and cries would never stop if they COULD feel pain. Is that something a loving God would want to listen to forever? No, the Revelation verses are showing that wicked people would be dead forever, without the possibility of a resurrection.

And Luke 16 is also a story presented to show that the religious leaders were not in God's favor anymore, not that there is a literal fiery hell. Have you ever heard of a metaphor? Jesus said that the rich man was in Hades, and Hades is the GRAVE. In this grave the rich man looked up to Abraham in heaven. Is this literal? No it's not. No one could look into heaven from the grave, and, further, one drop of water certainly wouldn't have literally soothed the rich man's tongue if he was in a fire. If you want to know more about the true explanation of the Rich Man and Lazarus, go to the website www.jw.org and type it into the search bar.

That story is known as a parable, which Jesus constantly used. A parable is "a short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle." (Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary.) A short fictitious story.

[Mae von H]

The question for debate is does hell exist? If so, what does the Bible teach hell is?

Jesus taught that hell is a place where the fire is never quenched and the worms never die. He warned people to avoid that destiny.

I guess some worms are just plain....evil?

I Cannot respond from personal experience and do not expect I will ever have to do so.

[Mae von H]

The question for debate is does hell exist? If so, what does the Bible teach hell is?

Jesus taught that hell is a place where the fire is never quenched and the worms never die. He warned people to avoid that destiny.

Are you posting without reading other posts? Jesus taught no such thing as a literal fire where people are tortured forever. He was speaking an analogy, something not literal. He meant that those consigned to the lake of fire or Gehenna would totally evaporate---completely annihilated, existing no more. That is what something is when consigned to a literal fire---it is completely gone, forever. Jesus warned people to avoid being put into Gehenna or the lake of fire, because they would exist no more.

Why start with the assumption that seeing that my response pointing out that this position does not match what Jesus said is because I did not read what they wrote? Jesus did not say it was an analogy nor parable. He said it as a fact. When he said, "the kingdom of God is like...." that was an analogy. Jesus warned about hell and your position makes that really absurd. Why warn someone that their eternity is annihilation? There are not a few people who hope that is exactly what awaits them. No judgement. No suffering for the suffering they inflicted. All the evil they did in life plays no role. No justice towards the evil, instead exactly what they want, nothing. Every single person who commits suicide hopes this...that there is no more suffering. So one can see why this view is popular.

[JehovahsWitness]

Why warn someone that their eternity is annihilation?

Well if someone wanted to live (ie EXIST) warning them how to avoid eternal non-existence is useful. I, for one would rather live than not exist, especially if I am offered eternity of happiness with God's blessings.

There are not a few people who hope that [annihilation] is exactly what awaits them.

If people hope for everlasting non-existence, he will give it to them. No harm, no foul.

No judgement.

The JUDGEMENT is: "I hereby sentence you to death". ie non-existence. If a person is judged by God as being unworthy of continued life he takes their away. He does not transfert their life to another location.

No suffering for the suffering they inflicted.

No. God is love. In his divine kindness he does not deem it necessary to torture those he judges as unworthy of continued life. indeed it is sadistic to gain pleasure or satisfaction from the suffering of others and no purpose would be served.

No justice towards the evil

It is not just to torture someone for all eternity. Eventually they would have suffered longer than any suffering they inflicted.

All the evil they did in life plays no role.

Their evil would have played a role in influencing the final decision: the death (non-existence ) penalty.

Every single person who commits suicide hopes this...that there is no more suffering.

Yes but there's no more pleasure either. People who commit suicide are suffering so much in life that "nothing" becomes their only hope. God offers a life of pleasure but in his divine kindness contrasts it with "nothingness" rather than torture.

[Mae von H]

Why warn someone that their eternity is annihilation?

Well if someone wanted to live (ie EXIST) warning them how to avoid eternal non-existence is useful. I, for one would rather live than not exist, especially if I am offered eternity of happiness with God's blessings.

. Every single atheist I’ve ever met WANTS there to be nothing after this life. Everyone who commits suicide hopes this too. Those guys on death row as well.

There are not a few people who hope that [annihilation] is exactly what awaits them.

If people hope for everlasting non-existence, he will give it to them. No harm, no foul.

No judgment. No justice. Feel free to be as evil as benefits you in this life. Plenty harm. Plenty foul.

No judgement.

The JUDGEMENT is: "I hereby sentence you to death". ie non-existence. If a person is judged by God as being unworthy of continued life he takes their away. He does not transfert their life to another location.

Most would love it. It’s what the worst people in history hope for….no justice.

No suffering for the suffering they inflicted.

No. God is love. In his divine kindness he does not deem it necessary to torture those he judges as unworthy of continued life. indeed it is sadistic to gain pleasure or satisfaction from the suffering of others and no purpose would be served.

He doesn’t take pleasure in their suffering but He’s not squeamish about justice.

No justice towards the evil

It is not just to torture someone for all eternity. Eventually they would have suffered longer than any suffering they inflicted.

They can avoid any suffering altogether if they’re willing.

All the evil they did in life plays no role.

Their evil would have played a role in influencing the final decision: the death (non-existence ) penalty.

That’s their hope…the sooner the better for some of them.

Every single person who commits suicide hopes this...that there is no more suffering.

Yes but there's no more pleasure either. People who commit suicide are suffering so much in life that "nothing" becomes their only hope. God offers a life of pleasure but in his divine kindness contrasts it with "nothingness" rather than torture.

That’s not their feelings or view.

[onewithhim]

Why warn someone that their eternity is annihilation?

Well if someone wanted to live (ie EXIST) warning them how to avoid eternal non-existence is useful. I, for one would rather live than not exist, especially if I am offered eternity of happiness with God's blessings.

. Every single atheist I’ve ever met WANTS there to be nothing after this life. Everyone who commits suicide hopes this too. Those guys on death row as well.

There are not a few people who hope that [annihilation] is exactly what awaits them.

If people hope for everlasting non-existence, he will give it to them. No harm, no foul.

No judgment. No justice. Feel free to be as evil as benefits you in this life. Plenty harm. Plenty foul.

No judgement.

The JUDGEMENT is: "I hereby sentence you to death". ie non-existence. If a person is judged by God as being unworthy of continued life he takes their away. He does not transfert their life to another location.

Most would love it. It’s what the worst people in history hope for….no justice.

No suffering for the suffering they inflicted.

No. God is love. In his divine kindness he does not deem it necessary to torture those he judges as unworthy of continued life. indeed it is sadistic to gain pleasure or satisfaction from the suffering of others and no purpose would be served.

He doesn’t take pleasure in their suffering but He’s not squeamish about justice.

No justice towards the evil

It is not just to torture someone for all eternity. Eventually they would have suffered longer than any suffering they inflicted.

They can avoid any suffering altogether if they’re willing.

All the evil they did in life plays no role.

Their evil would have played a role in influencing the final decision: the death (non-existence ) penalty.

That’s their hope…the sooner the better for some of them.

Every single person who commits suicide hopes this...that there is no more suffering.

Yes but there's no more pleasure either. People who commit suicide are suffering so much in life that "nothing" becomes their only hope. God offers a life of pleasure but in his divine kindness contrasts it with "nothingness" rather than torture.

That’s not their feelings or view.

So somehow you know what the people who commit suicide are feeling? I'll say that some of those people are so distraught that they don't have a clear idea of anything that will befall them after death. There are some who feel that God will have mercy on them, and I'm sure He will, the merciful God that He is.

Why would our loving God torture someone forever? He is not "squeamish" but would not roast someone in a fire, period. He is loving and merciful, and it is more merciful to cause an evil person to be totally annihilated rather then tortured. If the person doesn't care whether or not he's obliterated, so be it. He's still going to be annihilated.

[JehovahsWitness]

Every single atheist I’ve ever met WANTS there to be nothing after this life.

So? So what?! Does a traffic warden kick you in the head for speeding because you were hoping to get away with a ticket? That's not how justice works: it determines the appropriate punishment and acts accordingly regardless of any perceived expectations of the guilty.

God does not take his lead from what the wicked expect, his actions are dictated by DIVINE JUSTICE. Not yours or any human demand for vengance.

God has expressed no desire to make punishment worse than feared (as if a wicked person hoped God would just cut off one arm , he'll one up on them and cut off both limbs and blind them with a hot poker to boot) That is psychotic behaviour.

Divine love and divine justice are perfectly balanced and if God deems you have no right to life he has determined he will remove your life. No more , no less.

[JehovahsWitness]

It is not just to torture someone for all eternity. Eventually they would have suffered longer than any suffering they inflicted.

They can avoid any suffering altogether if they’re willing

Your remark does not address the need for justice. The divine standard of JUSTICE is equal punishment for equal damage: "eye for eye, tooth for tooth , life for life"

Eternal torture would by definition mean the person will suffer longer than any suffering he caused ; this violates God's stated standard of JUSTICE.

That they could have avoided this unjust punishment by not breaking the law in the first place, is simply a perversion of justice; its the equivalent of saying : " I will let you be gang raped for stealing some sweets. I know its not just but you should have thought about that before you stole some sweets".

Can you not see that imbalanced punishment is a violation not an expression of justice?

He doesn’t take pleasure in their suffering but He’s not squeamish about justice.

You make pretty fast and loose with your use of the word "justice" but your comments indicate you are confusing JUSICE with a very human desire for vengence.

I have outlined above what divine justice entails and why , perhaps you would like to outline what YOU mean by justice because what you seem to be outlining does not resemble anything I have come across in scripture.