GEHENNA, a place of fiery torture?

[onewithhim]

Jesus warned his disciples against suffering the judgment of Gehenna. Was he referring to a burning hell of everlasting torture? (Matthew 5:22)

The Greek word Ge'en na corresponds to the Hebrew geh veneh-Hin nom,---Valley of the sons of Hinnom. It became a garbage dump for Jerusalem, serving as an incinerator where fires were kept burning to dispose of rubbish, and anything thrown into this dump would be completely destroyed, turned into ashes.

Many Bible translators haven rendered Ge' en na as "hell." (Matthew 5:22, KJV) Why is this? (Since Gehenna and hell are two different things.) Because they associated the pagan-inspired notion of an afterlife of fiery judgment for the wicked with the physical fire in the valley outside Jerusalem. Jesus, though, did not associate Gehenna with torture. He knew that the thought of burning people alive is repugnant to Jehovah. He referred to the use made of Gehenna in the days of the prophet Jeremiah. God said: "They have built the high places of Topheth which is in the valley of the sons of Hinnom in order to burn their sons and daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart." Burning people was not something that God can countenance, and He can't to this day. A good point is that the idea of torture for the dead conflicts with God's loving personality as well as with the Bible's clear teaching that "the dead are conscious of nothing." (Ecclesiastes 9:5,10)

Jesus used the term "Gehenna" to symbolize the utter destruction that would come from God's judgment on the wicked. So...."Gehenna" means, similarly, the lake of fire in Revelation. Both symbolize eternal destruction from which there is no resurrection. (Luke 12:4,5; Revelation 20:14,15.

Doesn't this sound more merciful than people being tortured in a never-ending fire? The fire symbolizes complete annihilation, just like what the fires in Gehenna did to trash and bodies of criminals.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #9]
Why do so many people believe that after a person dies they are still alive? I thought to be dead means you are actually dead.

Babylon ! For as long as she has existed if there is one common thread for all her daughters its that the word "dead" it means ALIVE somewhere else. That's why I tend to use the word non-existent in myosts because you can bet for 99% of religious people, if you say the word "dead" by the time that word reaches their ears they hear "transported somewhere alive in another form".


Rdv 18:4 !

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #9]
Why do so many people believe that after a person dies they are still alive?

Because that is what they have been taught for many centuries by clergy whom they admire, respect, and oftentimes worship.

Reverend Billy Graham, perhaps the most highly respected Christian evangelist ever, made the following remarks concerning the human "soul" in his Louisville Kentucky Crusade:

Your eternal soul is the most valuable thing you possess.

You have a body, but living inside of you is your spirit or soul. And when a person dies, what happens? The soul goes on.

(Speaking on the value of the soul, he continued to say:)

First, it's valuable because it's eternal. It's going to live forever. A million years from now, our soul will be living.
The body is the house, the soul is the tenant. But when the body dies, the soul lives on.

<======================>

For many years, there was no major difference between any of the largest Christian denominations' basic beliefs. These common erroneous basic beliefs were:

1) Man is born as an immortal soul living within a physical body.

2) If man accepts Jesus as his Savior prior to his death, his soul
immediately goes to heaven for eternity when his physical body dies.

3) If man does not accept Jesus as his Savior, his soul immediately
goes to hell for eternity when his physical body dies.

4) At the resurrection, man's eternal soul is merged back with his
resurrected eternal physical body.

Notice that every belief following the first is a direct result of the first false belief, man's immortality! That is, if man lives forever, he must reside somewhere.

Therefore, beliefs two and three assign homes to man's immortal soul. Christian theologians assign heaven as the eternal home of those who believe in Jesus Christ.

All others are condemned eternally to hell.

However, spiritual bodies such as the soul do not experience pain. It is simply not fair that nonbelievers live for eternity in hell with no corporal punishment! Therefore, belief four reunites the soul with an incorruptible physical body at the resurrection. This physical body can suffer pain but never die. Now nonbelievers can experience excruciating pain every second for eternity.

Ah, that is now a complete and perfect system!

[theophile]

The logical answer is that there are sinners living outside, in Gehenna.

No, GEHENNA refers to the condition of the dead not the living. In Jesus day, only refuse and dead bodies were thrown there, nothing living. Jesus was not implying that the dead suffer pain after their death (that is impossible since that which does not exist cannot feel anything) but that they faced complete annihilation.

You don't think there were scavengers picking through the refuse of Gehenna in Jesus' day? Looking for whatever scraps of value that might be there? Of course there were -- just like any modern day dumping ground has such ones...

That aside, better to know your answer to the more general question I posed, i.e., what is outside the city apart from Gehenna and all the dead ones buried there? Is there nothing out there but the fiery wasteland? Just plants and wild animals in any areas left unburnt by God? Why then have a wall? To keep the animals out??

There's something that just doesn't add up if what we're presented at the end of Revelation is meant to be a final solution of sorts re: sin.

And to be clear, I'm not suggesting that the dead ones in Gehenna are suffering pain. The dead ones out there are dead, full stop. What I'm suggesting is that not all sinners out there are dead. Or, at minimum, that not all things cast out there are capable of complete annihilation, like Satan for instance. Who along with the beast and false prophet are literally 'tormented forever' -- a verse I don't see any explanation for in your view.

.... Like Job, sitting on the ash heap. Living a tortured existence. (Not saying Job is a sinner, but it is the exact same imagery as Gehenna we see deployed here.)

No we do not; Job's situation has nothing to do with what Jesus was teaching about the fate of the wicked. Job did not live in Jerusalem and Job was alive not dead. Job was a righteous man. Job was tormented by Satan not God.

Pretty sure God was in cahoots with the satan... But yes, Jesus was indeed teaching about the fate of the wicked. And that's exactly how Job sees himself based on how he is treated by God, is it not? i.e., he must either be wicked or worthless to be treated in such a way... Or in a word, a sinner. As such, Job consigns himself to his own Gehenna, living amongst the ashes in his own 'eternal' torment.

So the parallel is clear. You can deny it all you want, but I think it would be remiss of us to not see the connection between Job and Revelation here. The author of Job is foreshadowing what becomes a much stronger teaching in the NT.

[JehovahsWitness]

There's something that just doesn't add up if what we're presented at the end of Revelation is meant to be a final solution of sorts re: sin

Dis you have a particular verse in mind?

[JehovahsWitness]

...Job sees himself based on how he is treated by God, is it not? i.e., he must either be wicked or worthless to be treated in such a way...

Sometimes low self esteem causes us to view ourselves wrongly ; the important thing is to try and view ourselves as God does. Jehovah was very clear about how he viewed Job ...

JOB 1:8

And Jehovah said to Satan: “Have you taken note of my servant Job? There is no one like him on the earth. He is an upright man of integrity, fearing God and shunning what is bad.”

.

[theophile]

There's something that just doesn't add up if what we're presented at the end of Revelation is meant to be a final solution of sorts re: sin

Dis you have a particular verse in mind?

Here's a few references to paint the picture.

From Revelation 19:
"20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf... The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur."

Note here that the beast and false prophet are alive in Gehenna, with no further mention of their complete annihilation in the remaining text.

From Revelation 20:
"9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Same now Satan. Presumably alive with the beast and the prophet in Gehenna, insofar as one must be alive to suffer eternal torment. i.e., not completely annihilated.

As for human beings, we know from Revelation 20:11-15 that the dead are judged and cast into Gehenna (the second death), and I would agree that these ones are dead-dead in the sense of being completely annihilated. There is no hope of resurrection here. These ones just stay dead. But again, what about the living? By which I mean those who were not consumed by the fires of God amongst the nations but who also are not yet citizens of the city of God?

Those remaining ones - if any - are not yet judged by the end of Revelation. They are outside the city, presumably in or around Gehenna itself. And the fact that they are still there is evidenced by Revelation 21 which speaks of the nations outside, i.e.:

"24 The nations will walk by [the city's] light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life."

Hence there are clearly still remnants left living outside the city after the events of Revelation 20 and the judgment of the dead. Living ones that are not yet judged. This makes sense why the city has walls, gates, and angels guarding the gates of the city to prevent any "impure" ones from entering. Those who are still living in or around Gehenna itself...

And finally, from Revelation 22 to put a capstone on this idea that there are still living ones in or around Gehenna, yet to be judged, is that there is an implied flow into the city from outside, i.e.:

"14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood."

Hence there is still opportunity for those impure ones living outside the city to "wash their robes" and gain entry. Not the dead-dead ones out there who were already judged, but the living remnant that is still obviously capable of sin and that has yet to receive final judgment.

So all in all, per my comment you quoted, Revelation does not mark a final solution to sin. Not in the sense of it being completely annihilated at least. Only the dead who were judged and remain dead are completely annihilated.

[JehovahsWitness]

From Revelation 19:
"20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf... The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur."

Did the verse say they remained alive while they were IN the Lake of fire? Did the verse say they got out of the lake of fire alive? To throw something is to release it in a given direction, so all we know from the verse is Jesus (the strong angel) did not kill them first, he threw the Prophet, the beast and eventually Satan himself in alive; that's not to say they survived when they hit the flames!

If a man fell [alive] into a errupting volcano of say 1200 °C, would he remain alive for long?

FIRE is often used in the bible to symbolize utter and complete DESTRUCTION. Being thrown into the lake of fire means that the individual, group or entity exists before but ceases to exist after the action. Thus for example According to the Revelation, SATAN the Devil is also thrown into the lake if fire. Of course you cannot literally burn a spirit (literal fire has no effect on spirits) but he [Satan] will be utterly destroyed and cease to exist from the second he envers the symbolic lake of fire .

[JehovahsWitness]

From Revelation 20: 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."[/i]

A "tormenter" in bible times was just an alternative name for a "jailer" . This verse means that Satan' s non-existence would be permanent.

[JehovahsWitness]

DOES THE BIBLE INDICATE THAT THERE WILL BE A DESIGNATED AREA FOR THE WICKED TO CONTINUE EXISTING FOR ALL ETERNITY?

Absolutely not!

PSALM 37 verse 10, 11 tells us ....

Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more; You will look at where they were, And they will not be there. But the meek will possess the earth, And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace."

The bible promises that ultimately the wicked will not merely be tranfersed, deported, displaced or isolated...it says they will be removed from the planet

PROVERBS 2:21, 22

For only the upright will reside in the earth and the blameless will remain in it. As for the wicked, they will be cut off from the earth, and the treacherous will be torn away from it.

Will they be kept alive in some non disclosed area ? No, the bible is clear the wicked are to be destroyed as in annihilated, cut of from all existence ....

PSALM 73:27 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Those far from You will certainly perish; You destroy all who are unfaithful to You

CONCLUSION The bibel promises a new heavens and a new earth in which {quote} "righteousness is to dwell" There will be no place in the physical universe, or anywhere in the spiritual realm for the wicked to continue to exist (2 Peter 3:13).





JW

[JehovahsWitness]

REVELATION 21:27 "Nothing impure will ever enter it [The holy city], nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life."

REVELATION 21 speaks of the "New Jerusalem" . This does not refer to The literal city in present day Israel but the heavenly kingdom headed by the resurrected Jesus Christ. Some have misunderstood the expression "Nothing impure will ever enter it" to indicate that the "shameful or deceitful" people denied membership to this government will be kept alive forever somewhere else.

However the verse is not saying that potential threats must remain as such for all eternity rather that for all eternity Gods kingdom /rulership will remain pure. Initially because it will be protected from the unscrupulous and thereafter it will remain pure forever because those unscrupulous individuals will no longer exist.

But do not the closing words in Revelation indicate there will always be "dogs" and unclean individuals alive somewhere?

No. Notice what timeframe when God speaks from at Revelation 22 verse 12* “Look! I am coming quickly"..., so the closing words of the bible book of Revelation are not uttered from the perspective of Gods purpose already accomplished but rather they are a call to action BEFORE God takes action.


* The book of Revelation does not present events in strictly chronological order.


Indeed notice what the angel says just before God speaks in verse 12 "“He also tells me: ‘Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, for the appointed time is near. He that is doing unrighteousness, let him do unrighteousness still; and let the filthy one be made filthy still; but let the righteous one do righteousness still, and let the holy one be made holy still.’”​—Revelation 22:10, 11.

So for these closing words we are hearing comments about a time when both the wicked and the righteous are being invited to make their choices prior to God's final judgements. Carry on with filthy behaviour and face eternal annihilation (non-existence) or enter into God's blessing by acting righteously.

REVELATION 22 13-15

Happy are those who wash their robes, that the authority to go to the trees of life may be theirs and that they may gain entrance into the city by its gates. Outside [as in excluded from these blessings] are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and the fornicators and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone liking and carrying on a lie.”​—Revelation 22:12-15

.


Does this mean those that make the wrong choice and end up EXCLUDED from kingdom blessings are allowed to continue to live either on earth or in some part of a spiritual realm?

Absolutely not! (See above Post #19 : LINK viewtopic.php?p=1139177#p1139177 )






JW