Does God have Purpose? Would it's creation have purpose?

[boatsnguitars]

Premise 1: Every existing entity, including humans, necessitates a discernible explanation for its existence; otherwise, it falls into the category of Brute Fact, devoid of inherent reason for it's existence or purpose.

Premise 2: Brute Facts, by definition, lack discernible reasons or inherent explanations; they exist without an intelligible cause or purpose.

Premise 3: If humans are products of a Brute Fact, such as a conceptualized "God," the imposed purpose lacks inherent purpose itself.

Premise 4: A purpose imposed by a Brute Fact raises questions about the autonomy of entities in shaping their own purpose. (Rather than a Brute Fact - like an Atheistic Universe, or God's own existence - which would not impose a purpose on the things caused/created by it.)

Conclusion: Therefore, if humans are products of a Brute Fact, the imposed purpose lacks inherent purpose, and the autonomy of individuals to shape their own meaning is brought into question.

Note the difference between Imposed Purpose and Inherent Purpose.

Theists would argue that God imposes a purpose on it's creation, and that gives humans an imposed purpose. However, as we see, God has no purpose - can't have a purpose - as no one gave God a purpose, so if God gives us purpose it is for no deeper purpose other than God wanting it.
Also, if God has a self-imposed purpose, then he has denied that one, true free act to its Creation - we are all robots with the illusion of Free Will.

And, in fact, Theists try to argue that under Atheism, people can't have purpose because the Universe is purposeless. Atheists argue that we can make our own purpose - which is exactly what Theists would have to argue about God.

So, why do Theists prefer to be given a purpose (like to die of cancer to inspire people to give to cancer charities) and not create their own meaning in their life? Further, it appears that most religions teach that the purpose of human life is to praise God - which is a purpose he created for himself. This seems supremely selfish and seems to indicate that the writers of the religious text were needy, self-absorbed egoists.

Give the arguments presented, why do Theists feel that God provides Purpose to their lives, rather than it being an Atheistic world in which they've decided to follow a religion they feels gives them purpose?

[The Tanager]

So, through men, not God. How do you know those men are telling you the truth? Don't Muslims believe their Imams tell them the truth?

Introduced to the idea directly through humans, yes. I didn't take their word for it. I questioned it. I doubted it. I prayed that God, if He existed, was going to need to show me, because I got to the point of being an agnostic heavily leaning towards atheism. I think He eventually did, intimately as I was reading someone talk about a passage of scripture. I felt what I believe was God's presence. Could I have been wrong? Absolutely, and even since then I've been testing that out and reasoning and listening to different arguments, more from non-believers than believers because I hate echo chambers, and I'm more convinced than ever that that experience (and others since then) are of God.

[boatsnguitars]

So, through men, not God. How do you know those men are telling you the truth? Don't Muslims believe their Imams tell them the truth?

Introduced to the idea directly through humans, yes. I didn't take their word for it. I questioned it. I doubted it. I prayed that God, if He existed, was going to need to show me, because I got to the point of being an agnostic heavily leaning towards atheism. I think He eventually did, intimately as I was reading someone talk about a passage of scripture. I felt what I believe was God's presence. Could I have been wrong? Absolutely, and even since then I've been testing that out and reasoning and listening to different arguments, more from non-believers than believers because I hate echo chambers, and I'm more convinced than ever that that experience (and others since then) are of God.

Why did your questioning lead to belief and not billions of others? What was special about your investigation? Because everyone else loves echo Chambers?

[The Tanager]

Why did your questioning lead to belief and not billions of others? What was special about your investigation? Because everyone else loves echo Chambers?

I think my questioning lead to that belief because it is the most rational. I could be wrong; others will think it leads elsewhere of course. I don't know that anything was special about my investigation; I gather there isn't. And I didn't say everyone else loves echo chambers; I simply said that I read more from non-believers than believers in my questioning because they are going to provide better reasons against Christianity than Christians often will because they understand that position better.

[boatsnguitars]

Why did your questioning lead to belief and not billions of others? What was special about your investigation? Because everyone else loves echo Chambers?

I think my questioning lead to that belief because it is the most rational. I could be wrong; others will think it leads elsewhere of course. I don't know that anything was special about my investigation; I gather there isn't. And I didn't say everyone else loves echo chambers; I simply said that I read more from non-believers than believers in my questioning because they are going to provide better reasons against Christianity than Christians often will because they understand that position better.

You have the most rational process? One that led you to believe an ancient religion with demons in pigs. Zombies, and God turning people into salt?

What specifically made your process more rational? Describe why you, and not billions of others, didn't find Jesus, even when they tried?

I find this to be a stunning admission. You didn't like echo chambers, inferring that others do, or that is why people don't find Jesus.

Again, that's telling what you didn't do.

Be specific? Did you say a mantra three times a week? Use crystals or candles? Read specific books that other people didn't?

[The Tanager]

You have the most rational process? One that led you to believe an ancient religion with demons in pigs. Zombies, and God turning people into salt?

What specifically made your process more rational? Describe why you, and not billions of others, didn't find Jesus, even when they tried?

I find this to be a stunning admission. You didn't like echo chambers, inferring that others do, or that is why people don't find Jesus.

Again, that's telling what you didn't do.

Be specific? Did you say a mantra three times a week? Use crystals or candles? Read specific books that other people didn't?

I didn’t say I had the most rational process. My process of questioning things isn’t different from many others who question things. I said that process leads to (I think) Christianity being the most rational. I won’t presume to say why I found Jesus and others didn’t, even when they tried. Along the way either they or I made an error. Obviously, if I thought I made the error, I’d change my view and the same with them.

I didn’t infer that others like echo chambers or that this is why they don’t find Jesus. I simply said that I don’t like echo chambers. I hope others don’t as well. Do you only read those who agree with you?

I read various books, I prayed, I talked to people, I thought, I reasoned, and I will keep doing it. If I was in your position, I’d at least read various books, especially (but not limited to) those that disagree with me, and talk to people, especially (but not limited to) those that disagree with me. If you would like to do that with me, I’d start us out with the Kalam and go step by step.

[boatsnguitars]

You have the most rational process? One that led you to believe an ancient religion with demons in pigs. Zombies, and God turning people into salt?

What specifically made your process more rational? Describe why you, and not billions of others, didn't find Jesus, even when they tried?

I find this to be a stunning admission. You didn't like echo chambers, inferring that others do, or that is why people don't find Jesus.

Again, that's telling what you didn't do.

Be specific? Did you say a mantra three times a week? Use crystals or candles? Read specific books that other people didn't?

I didn’t say I had the most rational process.

Your entire impliocation is that you are doing it better than others.

You said "I don't like echo chambers" - implying that people who don't arrive at your same belief either like echo chambers, or, I'm being generous, are in echo chambers they don't recognize.

My process of questioning things isn’t different from many others who question things. I said that process leads to (I think) Christianity being the most rational. I won’t presume to say why I found Jesus and others didn’t, even when they tried. Along the way either they or I made an error. Obviously, if I thought I made the error, I’d change my view and the same with them.

This certainly seems a more honest and measured answer. I appreciate it, not that my appreciation is important to you.

I didn’t infer that others like echo chambers or that this is why they don’t find Jesus. I simply said that I don’t like echo chambers. I hope others don’t as well. Do you only read those who agree with you?

I read various books, I prayed, I talked to people, I thought, I reasoned, and I will keep doing it. If I was in your position, I’d at least read various books, especially (but not limited to) those that disagree with me, and talk to people, especially (but not limited to) those that disagree with me. If you would like to do that with me, I’d start us out with the Kalam and go step by step.

As you can see, if you were to try to convince people that Hell is real, God is real, Jesus is real, eternal salvation is real - and it's in their great and best interest to learn of it - you'd be hard pressed to do it.

Now, I expect you to say, "Right back at you, why can't you convince people of your view? Didn't you also have a rational, logical, echo-chamber-free process?"

Yes, I'd say, but I acknowledge that people are motivated, indoctrinated, or born with brains and emotions that don't lend themselves to truth all the time. That's why intuition isn't perfect, and why Science is so powerful: it overrides our innate deficiencies. Even the Bible recognizes the problem (calling it "sin"), but of course, the Bible tries to fill in the gaps with ancient men's understanding of the world - which was supremely ignorant.

So, rather than try to convince you of materialism, as a whole, I'd simply try to convince you of little things: like the existence of viruses, not sin or demons, to explain sickness. I'd show you how you can see the viruses, how to test for viruses, show how they disrupt processes in the body.
Then, if you accepted that, I'd show you how magnetism works, and that it's not magic, but a property of certain forms of Matter. Then, maybe electricity and how there are formulas to accurately measure it, and maybe show you a microwave as an example of how well we understand these processes.
One after another, I could show you a million things that work - with no appealing to the supernatural - and hope that then you'd see why if we don't know how something works, we don't invent an alternative reality - we just say, "I don't know."

[The Tanager]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #26]

Everyone thinks their rational conclusions are the best, or they wouldn’t hold them. I take the same approach as you, but it's not religion vs. science; it's religion and science. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and listening to mine.

[boatsnguitars]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #26]

Everyone thinks their rational conclusions are the best, or they wouldn’t hold them. I take the same approach as you, but it's not religion vs. science; it's religion and science. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and listening to mine.

Religion isn't rational. I appreciate your efforts to use old apologetics to answer these issues, but as you can see, Christian Apologetics are failing to keep up. The entire Church is fractured and is being waterdown in some quarters, in other quarters it is being turned into Religion-Lite (Entertainment), in other areas it is being used to grab political power. The Teachings of Jesus are straining to find relevance in todays world as CRISPR and other modern scientific advances are putting to shame the idea that prayer was ever effective. The hypocrisy and crimes in the Church (and subsequent efforts to avoid accountability) have undermined the Church's moral authority, especially now that fewer people are going - so fewer children are being indoctrinated.
Yes, many people are seeking other religious ideas; we are a cursed Ape that, for some reason, needs to invent magical tales because learning about the wonders of our actual universe is to time consuming - it's too hard! Quantum Mechanics, Evolution, etc. are just too much to digest. Much easy to say "God done it."

That's the difference. Religion is Uncle Cletus, who dropped out in 4th grade, listening to Carl Sagan's Cosmos and thinking, "Bible is easier to understand... I'll just go with that."

And Uncle Cletus, who dropped out of school in 4th grade in 2024 is 100 times more educated about the universe than any of the Bible writers. Mull that over and wonder why you feel a need to defend it.

[The Tanager]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #28]

I know you think religion isn’t rational. I agree that much of it isn’t, like what you name, but that’s not the whole story. Naming those elements isn’t a rational response to the arguments I offer here in defense of Christianity. I’m always willing to have a conversation about it.

[boatsnguitars]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #28]

I know you think religion isn’t rational. I agree that much of it isn’t, like what you name, but that’s not the whole story. Naming those elements isn’t a rational response to the arguments I offer here in defense of Christianity. I’m always willing to have a conversation about it.

Assume I've already made those arguments as a Christian, then struggled with them, and then started arguing against them for about 25 years. Because I have.

The reason you struggle with answering so many of my specific questions is because those were the questions that plagued me as a Christian, and I had desperately searched for while trying to stay a Christian, and, now I'm simply asking those questions to Christians.

You are welcome to avoid answering all my questions, and not think hard about the issue. I don't care, but I think it's important everyone see how Apologist answers never measure up.