Nuda Scriptura?

[historia]

One of the foremost principles of the Protestant Reformation is sola scriptura, or "Scritpure alone."

For the Reformers, sola scriptura entailed the belief that the Bible is the sole infallible source of authority for Christian faith and practice. That doesn't, in itself, exclude the place of other authorities, including tradition and the creeds -- as Luther and Calvin's regular quoting of Augustine and other Church Fathers demonstrates -- just so long as these are considered as lesser authorities to the Bible.

However, in 19th Century America, some Protestants of a Baptist persuasion began to take this Reformation principle further, arguing that Christians should ignore tradition and the creeds and treat the Bible as the only authority for Christian faith and practice, period. In 1826, Alexander Campbell famously put it this way: "I have endeavored to read the scriptures as though no one had read them before me; and I am as much on my guard against reading them today, through the medium of my own views yesterday, or a week ago, as I am against being influenced by any foreign name, authority, or system, whatever" (source).

This latter view is sometimes called nuda scriptura, or "bare Scripture," to distinguish it from the historic Reformation view.

Question for debate:

Should Christians:

(a) follow the principle of sola scriptura (as Luther and Calvin understood it)
(b) follow the principle of nuda scriptura (as defined above)
(c) follow neither principle

And why?

[onewithhim]

Peace to you,

The Governing Body has authority to tell us what is to be taught but the teachings themselves do not have authority by themselves.

With respect, as an ex Jehovah's Witness of 9 years in the movement, I do not believe you are being completely honest or transparent here.

If you or any Jehovah's Witness since around 1980 makes statements that disagree with official Governing Body doctrine, and maintains such disagreements, this is grounds for disfellowshipping,
(excommunication from the faith.)

It is perceived as apostacy against Jehovah's visible organization, the 'faithful and discreet slave' whom the Governing Body now claim to be.

This is why all members staunchly and without exception believe exactly the same, and defend such.

This will be my last communication with you. All members do not just accept what the GB has said without formerly researching the subject and drawing their own conclusions. We are not blind sheep just following after the shepherd. I have researched the Bible, using many versions, and I have come up with my own conclusions and they just happen to agree with the GB's outlook on things.

Millions of Jehovah's Witnesses of one mind "formerly researching the subject and drawing their own conclusions." ???

I do not think so.

You're right. That is not possible. The proof is this: those same 'millions of jws who formerly researched the subject' just also happened to make the exact same mistakes.

Millions of people do not make the exact same mistakes (plural) unless they are copying one another (or copying the source of the error, such as the GB.)

Did millions of jws conduct their own research and each one come up with the same mistake that 1914 was the time Christ would return (or whatever the teaching was originally)? Did millions of jws conduct their own research that just happened to change each time the GB changed their teaching of when the separating of the sheep and the goats would begin? Of course not.

Just because a person reads the scriptures (that they were directed to read in a specific order) and accepts the interpretation that their religion has assigned those scriptures, doesn't mean that person conducted independent research to come up with the same conclusions. Otherwise, those same millions of people would not be making and accepting the exact same mistakes as their leaders.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Didn't I say that JWs do research on their own to confirm the accuracy of the literature that the GB provides? I for one don't read anything "in perfect order" like you say the GB tells us. They do not tell us to read something always in their own stated sequences. We can read anything, including other versions of the Bible and writings by worldly writers. Many of us are reading the Bible from front to back on our own. You are making unfair assertions.

[Ross]

It seems to me, then, that, far from saying that Christians are to follow Scripture alone, the Bible itself is replete with instances -- both implicit (in the oral teachings of Jesus) and explicit (in the instructions of the Epistles) -- where Christians are supposed to follow both the written and oral Tradition of the Church. That is certainly how the Early Church Fathers, the successors to the Apostles, understood things as well.

Agreed?

As far as until around the first century after the passing of The Lord, I would agree with you.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

The Governing Body has authority to tell us what is to be taught but the teachings themselves do not have authority by themselves.

With respect, as an ex Jehovah's Witness of 9 years in the movement, I do not believe you are being completely honest or transparent here.

If you or any Jehovah's Witness since around 1980 makes statements that disagree with official Governing Body doctrine, and maintains such disagreements, this is grounds for disfellowshipping,
(excommunication from the faith.)

It is perceived as apostacy against Jehovah's visible organization, the 'faithful and discreet slave' whom the Governing Body now claim to be.

This is why all members staunchly and without exception believe exactly the same, and defend such.

This will be my last communication with you. All members do not just accept what the GB has said without formerly researching the subject and drawing their own conclusions. We are not blind sheep just following after the shepherd. I have researched the Bible, using many versions, and I have come up with my own conclusions and they just happen to agree with the GB's outlook on things.

Millions of Jehovah's Witnesses of one mind "formerly researching the subject and drawing their own conclusions." ???

I do not think so.

You're right. That is not possible. The proof is this: those same 'millions of jws who formerly researched the subject' just also happened to make the exact same mistakes.

Millions of people do not make the exact same mistakes (plural) unless they are copying one another (or copying the source of the error, such as the GB.)

Did millions of jws conduct their own research and each one come up with the same mistake that 1914 was the time Christ would return (or whatever the teaching was originally)? Did millions of jws conduct their own research that just happened to change each time the GB changed their teaching of when the separating of the sheep and the goats would begin? Of course not.

Just because a person reads the scriptures (that they were directed to read in a specific order) and accepts the interpretation that their religion has assigned those scriptures, doesn't mean that person conducted independent research to come up with the same conclusions. Otherwise, those same millions of people would not be making and accepting the exact same mistakes as their leaders.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Didn't I say that JWs do research on their own to confirm the accuracy of the literature that the GB provides? I for one don't read anything "in perfect order" like the GB might be telling us. They do not tell us to read something in their own stated sequences. We can read anything, including other versions of the Bible and writings by worldly writers. Many of us are reading the Bible from front to back on our own. You are making unfair assertions.

If millions of people were conducting their own research (to confirm something the GB provides), can you explain how they would all make the exact same mistake as the GB?

Peace to you.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to tam in post #63]

The GB hasn't made any mistakes concerning doctrine. And we all have studied the Bible to see that those doctrines are correct.

[2timothy316]

Didn't I say that JWs do research on their own to confirm the accuracy of the literature that the GB provides? I for one don't read anything "in perfect order" like the GB might be telling us. They do not tell us to read something in their own stated sequences. We can read anything, including other versions of the Bible and writings by worldly writers. Many of us are reading the Bible from front to back on our own. You are making unfair assertions.

This is what detractors do. They don't trust the GB and they want to sow their distrust to everyone else. They don't listen to the FDS and they want others to do the same. All those former 'Witnesses' were never Jehovah's Witnesses. They let the human element of God's Organization stumble them. Just as those Jews who were stumbled because the Son of God looked like a mere man and could be killed like a mere man. They wouldn't follow Jesus because of this fact, he was just a man. This was brilliant on Jehovah's part to sift through who's hearts were really toward God and separate the haughty and self-righteous from His followers. The FDS and GB are just men too. Imperfect men to boot. This will stumble many and Jehovah is in His brilliance once again uses imperfect men to keep His Earthly Organization free of haughty and selfish people.

I am in agreement with the Bible at 1 Cor. 5:12, 13, "What do I have to do with judging those outside".
Those that don't want to listen to the FDS, I say let them go and avoid those that try to get others to do the same. If others want to listen to them, let them make their own choices. This is why I have certain people blocked on this site. Especially former so-called "witnesses'. I have heard their reasoning before, weighed it and I have found it worthless. I have no need of listening to broken records. It so predictable when the GB is brought into a debate, certain posts show up on cue with their same ol' same ol'.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Didn't I say that JWs do research on their own to confirm the accuracy of the literature that the GB provides? I for one don't read anything "in perfect order" like the GB might be telling us. They do not tell us to read something in their own stated sequences. We can read anything, including other versions of the Bible and writings by worldly writers. Many of us are reading the Bible from front to back on our own. You are making unfair assertions.

This is what detractors do. They don't trust the GB and they want to sow their distrust to everyone else. They don't listen to the FDS and they want others to do the same. All those former 'Witnesses' were never Jehovah's Witnesses. They let the human element of God's Organization stumble them. Just as those Jews who were stumbled because the Son of God looked like a mere man and could be killed like a mere man. They wouldn't follow Jesus because of this fact, he was just a man. This was brilliant on Jehovah's part to sift through who's hearts were really toward God and separate the haughty and self-righteous from His followers. The FDS and GB are just men too. Imperfect men to boot. This will stumble many and Jehovah is in His brilliance once again uses imperfect men to keep His Earthly Organization free of haughty and selfish people.

Are you actually comparing the GB to Christ?

The GB is not Christ.

We are supposed to be obeying Christ, listening to Christ, following Christ.


The GB teaches false things (just as human as 'the pope' and other religious leaders.) The GB teaches people to listen to them instead of to Christ. Oh, they might not come straight out and say that. But the end result is the same.


**I apologize for the quick tangent (though obviously a conversation about following the bible and/or men and creeds/traditions may include a discussion about the GB as just one leader of religion.)


Peace still to you and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

Peace to you,

Didn't I say that JWs do research on their own to confirm the accuracy of the literature that the GB provides? I for one don't read anything "in perfect order" like the GB might be telling us. They do not tell us to read something in their own stated sequences. We can read anything, including other versions of the Bible and writings by worldly writers. Many of us are reading the Bible from front to back on our own. You are making unfair assertions.

This is what detractors do. They don't trust the GB and they want to sow their distrust to everyone else. They don't listen to the FDS and they want others to do the same. All those former 'Witnesses' were never Jehovah's Witnesses. They let the human element of God's Organization stumble them. Just as those Jews who were stumbled because the Son of God looked like a mere man and could be killed like a mere man. They wouldn't follow Jesus because of this fact, he was just a man. This was brilliant on Jehovah's part to sift through who's hearts were really toward God and separate the haughty and self-righteous from His followers. The FDS and GB are just men too. Imperfect men to boot. This will stumble many and Jehovah is in His brilliance once again uses imperfect men to keep His Earthly Organization free of haughty and selfish people.

Are you actually comparing the GB to Christ?

The GB is not Christ.

We are supposed to be obeying Christ, listening to Christ, following Christ.


The GB teaches false things (just as human as 'the pope' and other religious leaders.) The GB teaches people to listen to them instead of to Christ. Oh, they might not come straight out and say that. But the end result is the same.


**I apologize for the quick tangent (though obviously a conversation about following the bible and/or men and creeds/traditions may include a discussion about the GB as just one leader of religion.)


Peace still to you and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

The GB is not being compared to Christ. And they don't tell us not to listen to Christ. They listen to him as well, and relay His instructions on to us. Christ is the head of our world-wide congregation and we follow Him.

[2timothy316]

The GB is not being compared to Christ. And they don't tell us not to listen to Christ. They listen to him as well, and relay His instructions on to us. Christ is the head of our world-wide congregation and we follow Him.

Funny eh, how our posts are twisted just slightly to claim something we never said. Where have I see that trick before? Oh yes I remember.

"Did God really say that you must not eat from every tree of the garden?” Gen 3:1

[2ndpillar2]

Peace to you,

Didn't I say that JWs do research on their own to confirm the accuracy of the literature that the GB provides? I for one don't read anything "in perfect order" like the GB might be telling us. They do not tell us to read something in their own stated sequences. We can read anything, including other versions of the Bible and writings by worldly writers. Many of us are reading the Bible from front to back on our own. You are making unfair assertions.

This is what detractors do. They don't trust the GB and they want to sow their distrust to everyone else. They don't listen to the FDS and they want others to do the same. All those former 'Witnesses' were never Jehovah's Witnesses. They let the human element of God's Organization stumble them. Just as those Jews who were stumbled because the Son of God looked like a mere man and could be killed like a mere man. They wouldn't follow Jesus because of this fact, he was just a man. This was brilliant on Jehovah's part to sift through who's hearts were really toward God and separate the haughty and self-righteous from His followers. The FDS and GB are just men too. Imperfect men to boot. This will stumble many and Jehovah is in His brilliance once again uses imperfect men to keep His Earthly Organization free of haughty and selfish people.

Are you actually comparing the GB to Christ?

The GB is not Christ.

We are supposed to be obeying Christ, listening to Christ, following Christ.


The GB teaches false things (just as human as 'the pope' and other religious leaders.) The GB teaches people to listen to them instead of to Christ. Oh, they might not come straight out and say that. But the end result is the same.


**I apologize for the quick tangent (though obviously a conversation about following the bible and/or men and creeds/traditions may include a discussion about the GB as just one leader of religion.)


Peace still to you and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

The GB is not being compared to Christ. And they don't tell us not to listen to Christ. They listen to him as well, and relay His instructions on to us. Christ is the head of our world-wide congregation and we follow Him.

Why do you need a GB to "relay His instructions"? Weren't they written down? Isn't the "anointing" the source of one's teachings (1 John 2:27)?

1 John 2:27 And as for you, the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But just as His true and genuine anointing teaches you about all things, so remain in Him as you have been taught.

[2timothy316]

“Who really is the faithful steward, the discreet one, whom his master will appoint over his body of attendants to keep giving them their measure of food supplies at the proper time?”​—LUKE 12:42.
“Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over your souls as those who will render an account.”​—HEBREWS 13:17.

Because the Bible says that is how God planned it.