Is This the Best Christians can do?

[Tcg]

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When it comes to supporting their God belief, are insults from their holy book like the following the best Christians have to offer?

"A fools is a person who does stupid things. If it is stupid to say "God does not exist", then it is legitimate to call that person a fool. And then it is not just name calling."

viewtopic.php?p=1140930#p1140930


Tcg

[TRANSPONDER]

They can and do far better than that. Such bonehead arguments (not to say insults) are not worthy of the best apologetics Bible apologists can do. I think they are at a disadvantage because the bible is in my experience they are far better than just saying 'If they don't believe in God, they are fools, so it's ok to say so'. The Bible is full of rubbish, in my view and they can only excuse and deny. They often do that with determination and expertise, but it usually ends in 'I don't care what you say..' type denial.

I treat good apologists with respect.It may not seem like it, but simply putting in the effort to address their argument is Respect for them, though not a lot for their material, apologetics and excuses.

[bjs1]

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When it comes to supporting their God belief, are insults from their holy book like the following the best Christians have to offer?

"A fools is a person who does stupid things. If it is stupid to say "God does not exist", then it is legitimate to call that person a fool. And then it is not just name calling."

viewtopic.php?p=1140930#p1140930

Not only is it not the best Christian’s can do, it’s not accurate.

The Hebrew word for fool (nabal) does not mean stupid. “Fool” is the best translation, but “stupid” would be wrong. It is more complex than that. The word means something more along the lines of “senseless.” In this case it was senselessness towards God and His commands. The word also carried a moral component.

So the Psalmist was saying that the person who does not keep God’s commands believes that there is no God.

The Psalmist, most likely King David, then applied the term to all people – including himself. He wrote “there is no one who does good.” He wrote that from God’s perspective “all have turned aside, they have together become corrupt.” This Psalm is a condemnation of all people for our corruption.

David then turns to praise for God because He is still stands as a refuge for the oppressed and those who seek Him. He claims that even though we are all corrupt and lived as if there is no God, there is still a God who is merciful and forgiving. He calls God’s people to rejoice because “the Lord restores the fortunes of his people,” even though we do not deserve such grace.

[POI]

[Replying to Tcg in post #1]

I also enjoy the comment on the very next post:

How would you prove God is not real? Don't you think it is foolish to claim God does not exist, if you can't prove it?

Just replace the word (God) with any other believed upon invisible agency, and you have the exact same argument.

To answer your question, I've noticed when someone in debate feels they are on the losing end, they resort to three types of strategies:

1. insult
2. change the subject
3. stop responding

In this case, the interlocutor opted for option 1.

[Difflugia]

When it comes to supporting their God belief, are insults from their holy book like the following the best Christians have to offer?

It depends.

The Bible isn't what Christians want it to be. There's no unified message, no single voice, and neither its history nor theology is consistent. It's at odds with known history, modern science, modern philosophy, and modern notions of morality and these are obvious even to the Bible's staunchest supporters. Every time a Christian tries to explain why a passage doesn't really mean what it seems to say, that ignorance of the natural world is poetic, or that slavery is sometimes OK, they're acknowledging to the rest of us (and themselves if they'll listen) that the Bible isn't the kind of authority that they want it to be. For them, there is no better. If we don't read into the Bible what they do, there's no good argument for us to do so. All that's left is emotional manipulation.

On the other hand, the Bible as it is offers paths to viable Christianities, but they require finding a god that none of the authors could see or know. That requires divining (so to speak) what the authors were right and wrong about. It requires a willingness to accept some uncertainty and personal responsibility for one's own theology. People with those character traits will most often keep on going, moving on from a personal Christianity toward the finish line of unbelief. The few that find an inbetween, though, at least manage to do better than insults.

[Difflugia]

The Psalmist, most likely King David

How did you arrive at that? Scholars are on the fence whether or not David even existed. How did you compute that he was "most likely" the psalmist?

[Masterblaster]

Hello

" How would you prove God is not real? Don't you think it is foolish to claim God does not exist, if you can't prove it?"1213

Psalm 14, the inspiration for all this, was a dismissive rebuttal to atheism in its day ( 3000yrs ago) I think the Psalm 14 quote was introduced to that thread by a non-believer, to make a point.

Look at the 1213 answer. In 2024 this opinion is logically referring to 'anti-theism'. People who are telling you that your God does not exist and that you are delusional in your beliefs, ie anti-theists.(3 contributors so far).

I tried to explain this at the time. A real atheist would not involve themselves with all this God-Talk.. Look at it from whatever angle you like, ie
'Don't waste your sweetness on the desert air', or whatever.
Why embark on the fools errand of telling a devout believer that they are delusional in their beliefs. Is that not both, stupid and presumptuous, especially when it is presented without any relevant receipts. Such is the folly of the 'anti-theist', and can we not direct people to ignore their beguiling ways. Ask them for an answer and they usually come up empty. Written to restore balance of viewpoints on this thread.
Thanks

[Masterblaster]

Hello

This was on the same 'Jerks' thread, regarding compromise...

TRANSPONDER - ". It is irrelevant. All that counts is the firepower and weaponry either side can bring, whether in muddy trenches or in open order and advancing with rifles oiled."

Is there any hint of foolishness in this. Will wisdom exude from this orifice? Should a theists be wary of utterings from this perspective? Do you imagine that they will give them serious consideration? I doubt it!

[bjs1]

The Psalmist, most likely King David

How did you arrive at that? Scholars are on the fence whether or not David even existed. How did you compute that he was "most likely" the psalmist?

This is not central to the point as was making, but the claim is also not true. While much of David's life is debated, there is almost universal agreement that a man named David was a leader in Israel around 1,000 BC. Only a tiny fringe group of scholars are on the fence about whether or not David existed.

[TRANSPONDER]

.
When it comes to supporting their God belief, are insults from their holy book like the following the best Christians have to offer?

"A fools is a person who does stupid things. If it is stupid to say "God does not exist", then it is legitimate to call that person a fool. And then it is not just name calling."

viewtopic.php?p=1140930#p1140930

Not only is it not the best Christian’s can do, it’s not accurate.

The Hebrew word for fool (nabal) does not mean stupid. “Fool” is the best translation, but “stupid” would be wrong. It is more complex than that. The word means something more along the lines of “senseless.” In this case it was senselessness towards God and His commands. The word also carried a moral component.

So the Psalmist was saying that the person who does not keep God’s commands believes that there is no God.

The Psalmist, most likely King David, then applied the term to all people – including himself. He wrote “there is no one who does good.” He wrote that from God’s perspective “all have turned aside, they have together become corrupt.” This Psalm is a condemnation of all people for our corruption.

David then turns to praise for God because He is still stands as a refuge for the oppressed and those who seek Him. He claims that even though we are all corrupt and lived as if there is no God, there is still a God who is merciful and forgiving. He calls God’s people to rejoice because “the Lord restores the fortunes of his people,” even though we do not deserve such grace.

It is in any case not complimentary to anyone with (quite reasonable) doubts about the god -claim. But I thank you at least for the implied rejection of how Some Few Bible apologists slam atheists as fools for not believing in a god (theist) and nothing better than that..
It isn't uncommon, of course. I have seen a posted pic. of a sign outside a church saying just that bit of hate -speech, and there was a Theramin trees (I think (1) vid. about a discussion with JWs who did visits and lost the discussion of course, and left with the last potshot 'Thinking themselves wise, they became fools' or som such passage. That inherent kneejerk contempt Believers have for any non -believers is always there.

In fact yesterday I watched Filipina Pea (q.v) asking girls whether they would date an atheist. The inherent national prejudice of unbelievers was palpable.

(1) Yes. Found it.