' Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.'

[Masterblaster]

Hello

Matthew 7:20
'Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.'

Are Christian's easily recognizable?
Are they obligated to act as examples?
Are they dramatically inconspicuous?
Are they dismally failing, and if so. WHY?

[TRANSPONDER]

Hello TRANSPONDER

You say - "It's a game, based on a trick"

I cannot see it in these absolute terms, T.

Leading by example would not be a trick if that was to be the general way of doing things. It is critical to have your core beliefs nailed down so that your example is good and influential. That is the instruction before embarking on any canvassing. I hardly think there is an evangelical preaching message there at all. It is more a case of go out and help.

There should be an openness to all this where nobody gets fooled and where nobody can pull the wool over anyone's eyes.

Matthew 7:
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Get yourself good with God and the rest will take care of itself. The first and greatest commandment should be any aspiring Christian's primary concern.
This hard-sell is no good and, correctly,creates ridicule and suspicion
If the fruit is bad it is expensive at any price. The many net metaphors and shepherd metaphors in the NT, might suggest that it is a numbers game, but I do not think so. People are intuitively attracted to things of merit.

Here is a question?
During my last visit to the Vatican, I noticed that many pilgrims were visiting from South and Central America. Does the faith of these people, in 2024, justify the atrocities of the Spanish and Portuguese colonists,way back then. There is a logic in many recruiting congregations that the end justifies the means. The desire to save someone else through coercion, appears immoral to me but you might see some sense in it. This logic can be used in any situation to justify the most perverse of actions. Take an African slave from a mud hovel that he calls home and in 300 years ,make his descendant a C.E.O. in Silicon Valley. That ,to me is a trick!

Trich or treat is the question. Analogy. There is a financial scheme that is supposed to make money. I used one and I did nicely out of it. Not a trick. Others just rip people off and do not deliver. In Pyramid schemes the people involvced themelves are fooled by it.

So given that we aren't at the end, on the current state of things, evidence and reason has delivered. Denial as science skepticism aside, we all use it and rely on it.

Religion has not delivered, xcept a bit of charity and frankly I'd rather religion vanished and the cash went direct to charity work. With enough left over to turn the creation museum into the Evolution institute.

The methods may look the same but the results differ. Examination reveals one method is valid and the other bamboozlement. Just my example of the cetan sequence which on evidence is the hard evidence for speciation/Macro -evolution.

The response after general denial (with at least a fair point about a possible chronology overlap between Pakicetus and Ambulocetus) has ben crickets. It seems, the trick is, ignore it and hope nobody hears it.

There is worse, with genesis, the nativities, the resurrection, Sermon ("Q") material ch 5 to 11 inclusive...

and most of the rest of the Book.

Evodence and reason (science and logic) delivers and is the Treat; Religion and its' apologetics does not. Trick.

cue: "Feelgood". concedo. But I would rather (like religion, morals, art and the instinct to self -justification) learn what is doing this rather than just credit it a god (name your own) and refuse to ask why the lampshade moved.

cue: the Required Watching Video.

[Mae von H]

Hello

Matthew 7:20
'Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.'

Are Christian's easily recognizable?
Are they obligated to act as examples?
Are they dramatically inconspicuous?
Are they dismally failing, and if so. WHY?

1) Some people clearly are. Some clearly aren’t. And some are hard to tell.

2) Examples of what, is the question. And obligated to whom?

3) Inconspicuous? They might shy away from public protests being at that point inconspicuous or the fore front speakers against wrong so then anything but inconspicuous.

4) Well, some fail sometimes. But not all fail always. Reasons vary.

[Mae von H]

[Replying to Masterblaster in post #1]

Actually, this was said to believers so they could figure out false teachers from the true. It wasn’t a way for unbelievers to measure believers. Indeed, it’s doubtful that unbelievers would recognize a believer in any case. How would they know the “fruit” spoken of?

[Masterblaster]

Hello Mae von H

You are correct regarding the context of the quote.
It was a direct warning against the influence of false teachings. Judge these by their results ( their fruit).

If that is the standard internally then it will stand up to external scrutiny, subsequently, ie, sort yourself out before you attempt to influence others. That is the Matthew way, I have been using his Gospel on this thread and I consider it the most elegant of the four. Thanks!

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to Masterblaster in post #1]

Actually, this was said to believers so they could figure out false teachers from the true. It wasn’t a way for unbelievers to measure believers. Indeed, it’s doubtful that unbelievers would recognize a believer in any case. How would they know the “fruit” spoken of?

Well, Believers tend to identify themselves, and the yardstick is, isn't t, the Book itself? If the Believers don't seem any better than the worst examples of the Book, then their Fruit is rotten, yes? But the fact is, the Advert for the fruit in the book itself is pretty rotten.

To those with the capacity to doubt and question, the whole thing looks pretty rotten, never mind the denomination..

[Mae von H]

[Replying to Masterblaster in post #1]

Actually, this was said to believers so they could figure out false teachers from the true. It wasn’t a way for unbelievers to measure believers. Indeed, it’s doubtful that unbelievers would recognize a believer in any case. How would they know the “fruit” spoken of?

Well, Believers tend to identify themselves, and the yardstick is, isn't t, the Book itself? If the Believers don't seem any better than the worst examples of the Book, then their Fruit is rotten, yes? But the fact is, the Advert for the fruit in the book itself is pretty rotten.

To those with the capacity to doubt and question, the whole thing looks pretty rotten, never mind the denomination..

Well, those of us on the inside don’t actually measure ourselves by the Book. Might look that way from outside so I can see why you’d say that. But it’s really not that way.

The real way we know we are Christ-ians or followers of Christ is because we walk with Him and He guides and corrects us. We have something you probably cannot admit is there, a relationship with the living God.

So it’s not likely you’ll understand how we know we are his.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to Masterblaster in post #1]

Actually, this was said to believers so they could figure out false teachers from the true. It wasn’t a way for unbelievers to measure believers. Indeed, it’s doubtful that unbelievers would recognize a believer in any case. How would they know the “fruit” spoken of?

Well, Believers tend to identify themselves, and the yardstick is, isn't t, the Book itself? If the Believers don't seem any better than the worst examples of the Book, then their Fruit is rotten, yes? But the fact is, the Advert for the fruit in the book itself is pretty rotten.

To those with the capacity to doubt and question, the whole thing looks pretty rotten, never mind the denomination..

Well, those of us on the inside don’t actually measure ourselves by the Book. Might look that way from outside so I can see why you’d say that. But it’s really not that way.

The real way we know we are Christ-ians or followers of Christ is because we walk with Him and He guides and corrects us. We have something you probably cannot admit is there, a relationship with the living God.

So it’s not likely you’ll understand how we know we are his.

Ah...well, there's the Problem, and why we get so many sects and denomination. The Evidence is that religious people walk with the creations and opinions in their own heads, and unless they use the Book - as interpreted by a Religious Authority (I think that the reason America has various religions is because there was no Church of America) as a guide they end up walking just where they want to go, and not always within the ambit of the secularist moral society of their nation.

[Masterblaster]

Hello Mae von H

You say - "So it’s not likely you’ll understand how we know we are his."

Jesus said that others will be able to understand and that they will be drawn to a world within God. This is to happen through our example. If you can radiate God it becomes infectious.

The very least that you need to do this is confidence. A Buddhist teacher will not tell a person that their chance of sharing his 'enlightenment', is 'not likely'. That would make them a rationalist, or a fraud, or an incompetent guide, take your pick.

[TRANSPONDER]

One might argue that it is more honest to tell the acolyte straight out that their progress towards enlightenment will take a few lifetimes, than to sell the Faithful a ticket to heaven without telling them that there are a lot of other touts all claiming their wad of tickets are the ones that will get you to heave even without looking at the small print that says that God is not obligated to admit anyone just because they bought a ticket. It is a fundamental flaw, fail and flop to buy into the most a outrageous promises of snake oil peddlars, Ponzi schemes and get right quick scams, just because they promise more than any of the others.

[Masterblaster]

Hello

Matthew 5 (again)

13 “You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people's feet.
-----
Unlucky for some!

This speaks to me about the real danger of becoming an irrelevant gong within the cacophony of human musings. Without a core , that comes from God, you will soon be found out and trampled on. It is happening all the time.

The condition is terminal and the unfortunate victims are as unaware of the circumstances of their irreversible plight, as would be a beached fish, flopping on the sands of an unforgiving shore.