Job 12: Is God active in the Natural World?

[Masterblaster]

Hello

Job12:
7 But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee:
8 Or speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee.
9 Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the Lord hath wrought this?
10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind

Somebody mentioned an Evolution phobia among Christians. What about a complete nature phobia?

Is God still turning up for work in our natural world?
(the best of Biblical Scripture states that he is).

Do you detect God in the natural world?

Why is this aspect of God largely ommitted from doctrine and discussion?
Is the mystical more attractive than the real?
Is Job correct in stating an awareness of God in all of creation?
Your opinion on this matter, please!

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to Mae von H in post #72]


You posted " It is quite possible that I have missed some OP threads by believers that insult atheists, but can you please supply such OPs where christians have asked a question that insulted atheists in the choice of working? Thank you"

Sorry, can't do that, as I have seen this 'phobia' on my other forum and in any case, I haven't the time to search for examples. If you want to argue that such things do not happen and Creationists do not get 'upset' with Christian evolutionists, then I am happy to withdraw that point. It makes no real difference to the debate.

The term 'phobia' was used. I referred to the term being thrown at atheists on my other board. But the point is that you get miffed at it. If you can't stand the heat..' as they say. A pretence of being offended is a nice little trick to try to manipulate the debate. Save your trying fingers, it doesn't wash here.

So this was a baseless claim that cannot be substantiated. It remains a phenomenon of the atheists and I admit one line of christian theology that assures them such attacks are forgiven already.

It is certainly one that cannot be validated without a lot of research. Neither the OP nor you (it seems) can Validate the accusation. I am happy to let the accusation drop if you are willing to withdraw yours - that you posted above - wishing the 'phenomenon'on the atheists. Prove it or withdraw the accusation. Forgiveness is nothing to do with it. We both know (or should) that these are debating ploys and nobody is really offended.

[Mae von H]

Hello Mae von H

You enquire"It is quite possible that I have missed some OP threads by believers that insult atheists, but can you please supply such OPs where christians have asked a question that insulted atheists in the choice of working"
-----

Such threads may exist but.....it is definitely not this one. Is there any chance that you might move your car somewhere else. It is rude to park at the Mall and shop across the street. People should make an attempt to reference the Opening Post at least in some way. I have spent alot of time developing interest in this topic.

Forum Rules
4. Stay on the topic of debate. If a topic brings up another issue, start another thread

You accuse Christians of having a "phobia" and complain when a christian takes exception to this baseless accusation instead of realising your wording was falsely accusing a group. You simply want to shoot the messenger. Do i detect a phobia there?

[Mae von H]

[Replying to Mae von H in post #72]


You posted " It is quite possible that I have missed some OP threads by believers that insult atheists, but can you please supply such OPs where christians have asked a question that insulted atheists in the choice of working? Thank you"

Sorry, can't do that, as I have seen this 'phobia' on my other forum and in any case, I haven't the time to search for examples. If you want to argue that such things do not happen and Creationists do not get 'upset' with Christian evolutionists, then I am happy to withdraw that point. It makes no real difference to the debate.

The term 'phobia' was used. I referred to the term being thrown at atheists on my other board. But the point is that you get miffed at it. If you can't stand the heat..' as they say. A pretence of being offended is a nice little trick to try to manipulate the debate. Save your trying fingers, it doesn't wash here.

So this was a baseless claim that cannot be substantiated. It remains a phenomenon of the atheists and I admit one line of christian theology that assures them such attacks are forgiven already.

It is certainly one that cannot be validated without a lot of research. Neither the OP nor you (it seems) can Validate the accusation. I am happy to let the accusation drop if you are willing to withdraw yours - that you posted above - wishing the 'phenomenon'on the atheists. Prove it or withdraw the accusation. Forgiveness is nothing to do with it. We both know (or should) that these are debating ploys and nobody is really offended.

Of course I can validate my claim. I can go through the current line of OPs and point out the ones that insult christians. The OP in this thread did just that although the title did not. I asked if believers do this and you declined to do this insisting it is a lot of work. Fair enough. It means christians rarely do this and finding one is work. Finding the atheists doing this is no work at all. It is hard to avoid them.

You, again, find it difficult to respond without inserting the usual insult. I, apparently to you, have knee jerk emotional reactions to what you write and get "miffed." I have yet to have anything close to that emotional response to what you write. You do not possess that ability to get me "miffed." My responses are all intellectual without exception. This enables me to see clearly the ad hominem attacks that atheists love to use and are totally blind to using. MB was insulted that I pointed out that he called a position a "phobia" and he responded emotionally, clearly. It was not intellectual. One can see why. He personally put a lot of effort into exploring this question and did not take it kindly that his insult (false) was highlighted. I should go away...clearly an emotional response.

I have kindly asked atheists to try to refrain from the ad hominem attacks in an intellectual exchange. Stop falsely accusing the other of poor character and stick to the argument (one of the rules I might add.) But alas, they usually defend their tactic with some emotional froth and refuse to honor the believers as people. One learns to accept that they cannot but attack personally as their intellectual arguments are few and weak, apparently.

[Masterblaster]

Hello

Mae von H says - ". One learns to accept that they cannot but attack personally as their intellectual arguments are few and weak, apparently."

I say, apparently Rule 4 does not apply to you. How much more of this condescending tosh have we to take. Somebody call a moderator!

Can a debater park their 'Wanderly Wagon' anywhere they like.The opening post is phrased

'What about a complete nature phobia?

That is not an accusation, that is an opinion formulated as an open question. You did not address this in any way but choose to litter your chosen campsite with your trash. Well Done!

[Mae von H]

Hello

Mae von H says - ". One learns to accept that they cannot but attack personally as their intellectual arguments are few and weak, apparently."

I say, apparently Rule 4 does not apply to you. How much more of this condescending tosh have we to take. Somebody call a moderator!

Can a debater park their 'Wanderly Wagon' anywhere they like.The opening post is phrased

'What about a complete nature phobia?

That is not an accusation, that is an opinion formulated as an open question. You did not address this in any way but choose to litter your chosen campsite with your trash. Well Done!

Despite your quite rude post, and because you have devoted some effort on this topic, I will address the topic overlooking the false accusations on believers.

From the point of those who believe God is real and active in the world, we have no access to answering this question. How are we to know what God is doing in the natural world. For those who do not really believe God is there, then of course they feel free to make up whatever they like as to what he is doing since, for them, He isn't really there anyway so any creation of the imagination will do. It is like asking what Tinkerbell is doing in the world. Any answer is as good as another.

So those who walk with God do not ask questions that require them to invent answers as the information is not readily available. Might as well as posters here was I did today or if I did anything. All you and they can do is hazard an uneducated guess. Of what value is that? So it is not "omitted from doctrine and discussion" as serious follower of Jesus Christ do not busy themselve with how many angels dance on the head of a pin or what is God up to in regards to the natural world.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to Mae von H in post #72]


You posted " It is quite possible that I have missed some OP threads by believers that insult atheists, but can you please supply such OPs where christians have asked a question that insulted atheists in the choice of working? Thank you"

Sorry, can't do that, as I have seen this 'phobia' on my other forum and in any case, I haven't the time to search for examples. If you want to argue that such things do not happen and Creationists do not get 'upset' with Christian evolutionists, then I am happy to withdraw that point. It makes no real difference to the debate.

The term 'phobia' was used. I referred to the term being thrown at atheists on my other board. But the point is that you get miffed at it. If you can't stand the heat..' as they say. A pretence of being offended is a nice little trick to try to manipulate the debate. Save your trying fingers, it doesn't wash here.

So this was a baseless claim that cannot be substantiated. It remains a phenomenon of the atheists and I admit one line of christian theology that assures them such attacks are forgiven already.

It is certainly one that cannot be validated without a lot of research. Neither the OP nor you (it seems) can Validate the accusation. I am happy to let the accusation drop if you are willing to withdraw yours - that you posted above - wishing the 'phenomenon'on the atheists. Prove it or withdraw the accusation. Forgiveness is nothing to do with it. We both know (or should) that these are debating ploys and nobody is really offended.

Of course I can validate my claim. I can go through the current line of OPs and point out the ones that insult christians. The OP in this thread did just that although the title did not. I asked if believers do this and you declined to do this insisting it is a lot of work. Fair enough. It means christians rarely do this and finding one is work. Finding the atheists doing this is no work at all. It is hard to avoid them.

You, again, find it difficult to respond without inserting the usual insult. I, apparently to you, have knee jerk emotional reactions to what you write and get "miffed." I have yet to have anything close to that emotional response to what you write. You do not possess that ability to get me "miffed." My responses are all intellectual without exception. This enables me to see clearly the ad hominem attacks that atheists love to use and are totally blind to using. MB was insulted that I pointed out that he called a position a "phobia" and he responded emotionally, clearly. It was not intellectual. One can see why. He personally put a lot of effort into exploring this question and did not take it kindly that his insult (false) was highlighted. I should go away...clearly an emotional response.

I have kindly asked atheists to try to refrain from the ad hominem attacks in an intellectual exchange. Stop falsely accusing the other of poor character and stick to the argument (one of the rules I might add.) But alas, they usually defend their tactic with some emotional froth and refuse to honor the believers as people. One learns to accept that they cannot but attack personally as their intellectual arguments are few and weak, apparently.

Well that is what I suspected. You find an insult where there is none (as I see it) so I don't doubt you could compile a list of what you consider insults. I reckon I could do that, too. In fact the accusation of ad hom attacks and emotional responses is grubby hands at your end. As I recall this was about use of the word'phobia' rather than changing the goalposts to 'insults' (as perceived by you) and I think you case just collapsed.

In any case this was always a sideline and polemical politics is not what the argument should be about. Though too often it is.

[Masterblaster]

[Replying to Mae von H in post #85]

Hello Mae von H

Now we see what you are about.

YOU - "So those who walk with God do not ask questions that require them to invent answers as the information is not readily available."

You are doing nothing else.

YOU - "So it is not "omitted from doctrine and discussion" as serious follower of Jesus Christ do not busy themselve with how many angels dance on the head of a pin or what is God up to in regards to the natural world."

How can you possibly equate an Angel dancing on a pin with your back garden?

That's it?

Let us ignore all the bible Scripture provided! You were better at getting in the way.

[Mae von H]

[Replying to Mae von H in post #85]

Hello Mae von H

Now we see what you are about.

YOU - "So those who walk with God do not ask questions that require them to invent answers as the information is not readily available."

You are doing nothing else.

When did I ever do such?

YOU - "So it is not "omitted from doctrine and discussion" as serious follower of Jesus Christ do not busy themselve with how many angels dance on the head of a pin or what is God up to in regards to the natural world."

How can you possibly equate an Angel dancing on a pin with your back garden?

Who can answer either? No one? There’s no difference then.

That's it?

Let us ignore all the bible Scripture provided! You were better at getting in the way.

Please provide scriptures that show God is today actively manipulating nature including when and where.

[Masterblaster]

Hello Mae von H

You ask - "Please provide scriptures that show God is today actively manipulating nature including when and where."

That is a reasonable question(at last).
The scripture provided is Biblical. It refers to the nature in this world. It refers to the God of Jesus. I was not informed that God had changed his ways in any significant way since this scripture was written. That makes it current. Please have a look at it and give a considered response.

I think that a thread of your own where you outline and justify your theological stance might be informative for all. I would definitely contribute.

If you have objections to what is written here by me, then please do a nut and screw breakdown of it.

If you are not bothered then please , move your van.
Thanks

[Masterblaster]

Hello

Eden is Burning!

"Gentlemen, he said
I don't need your organization, I've shined your shoes
I've moved your mountains and marked your cards
But Eden is burning, either getting ready for elimination
Or else your hearts must have the courage for the changing of the guards"

Bob Dylan

BrainFreeze! DOOH!