The Ascension

[fredonly]

Jesus' alleged Ascension to heaven is problematic text. Here's how Luke describes Jesus' ascension into heaven:

Luke 24:50-51
When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them. While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven.

Acts 1:8-9
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” When he had said this, as they were watching, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.

Implications:
1. Heaven is actually up in the sky. Really?! We know that's where 1st centuryJews believed it to be. But it ain't so!

2. If Jesus actually ascended into the sky while his followers watched, why didn't Mark, Matthew and John relate the event? This would have been nearly as remarkable as his alleged Resurrection.

Heaven isn't up in the sky*, and it's absurd to think such a monumental event would be omitted by any evangelists. The best explanation for these curiosities is that the Ascension did not occur, and Luke made it up. Why do this? Perhaps to explain why Jesus wasn't around any more.

Apologists like to point to incidental historical accuracies in the New Testament, as evidence the Gospels are trustworthy history. But fictions like the Ascension show that the evangelists weren't averse to making stuff up to fit their purposes- so the Gospels can't be assumed to be historically accurate in terms of relating alleged miraculous events.

__________________
*William Lane Craig rationalizes Jesus flight as being a show for the disciples. They believed heaven was "up there", and so Jesus vanished from the earthly spatio-temporal plane in this way so they would know where he went. This does rationalize the event, but pure invention is a better explanation, especially in light of the silence of the other evangelists on it.

[TRANSPONDER]

It's a funny thing that pointing to the clouds is shorthand for the heaven that is .....not only everywhere (though whether that includes here on earth is debated) but might have to be beyond the universe and space and time, just in case....you know...we invent some way of checking whether there is a heaven in the known universe.

But Luke - who is the only one who relates any of this - seems to think that Jesus is transported by cloud cover to the third Heaven, paradise apparently being reserved for penitent Jews who die on the cross before Christianity has been invented, and which may be identical with the 'Bosom of Abraham' as mentioned in the parable of Lazarus, which is absolutely nothing to do with the raising from simulated death of the man with the same name.

Of course, I have to reiterate my Theory that Luke revised his gospel - end to fit with Raul's letters; e.g altering the angelic message so the disciples were told to go to Galilee as Matthew relates they did, and added Jesus appearing to Simon - after sending us off along with Cleophas so the event isn't described ..just in case (Luke reasons) the event Paul referred to in ! Cor was described somewhere and refuted anything Luke might have invented.

As I argue, the angel does not tell them to go to Galilee but to stay in Jerusalem. Because Luke knows from Paul's letters that is what they did. So he has an appearance to the 12 as in 1 Cor. and a 40 day scripture lecture to fit the 12 to be apostles, and to maybe work in the appearance to 500 at once. After which Jesus can ascend to the heavens. "Beam me up, Gabriel"where Luke presumably though was where God lived - on top of the sky dome.

It may be debatable whether the 2nd heaven was the floor below that or built on the underneath of the sky dome, presumably with a viewing glass so God can look down upon the people scurrying about like ants on the flat circular earth below. Lazarus stays away as the view makes him giddy and he wants to avoid the sight of the rich straight white man pestering him for a cup of water.

[JehovahsWitness]

Heaven isn't up in the sky...

Firstly I know of no scripture that claims heaven* is in the sky (as in the atmosphere around the Earth where birds fly). Further if by "heaven" one is refering to the spiritual abode of God... how can you (or anyone) possible prove which direction one would have to travel in from the surface of the earth to access it. In other words how can one prove one cannot access heaven by travelling "up" (vertically away) from any given point on the earth's surface?

*the spiritual realm where God lives with His angels

[JehovahsWitness]

....why didn't Mark, Matthew and John relate the event?

WHY DID ONLY LUKE REPORT THE ASCENTION ?

- Firstly, it is generally agreed that the Christian tradition was originally oral , so the first century Christian community would have recieved first hand accounts of the ascension from those that reported they witnessed the event (compare Acts 2:42).

- When the need for written accounts eventually arose, it may well be that Luke's account had a sufficient degree of detail that the later writers saw no need to include the ascension itself.

In any case, all four gospels witness to a Christ risen from the dead and raised to heavenly glory (see below) which may well have been deemed as more important than his means of departure.

MATTHEW 28:18

Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.

CHAPTER 24: 30, 31 " ...and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones

MARK 13:26, 27

And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then he will send out the angels and will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from earth’s extremity to heaven’s extremity.

JOHN 20:17

Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers+ and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father+ and your Father and to my God+ and your God.’”

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS



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[fredonly]

... how can one prove one cannot access heaven by travelling "up" (vertically away) from any given point on the earth's surface?

Your point seems to be that it is logically possible Jesus entered heaven via this route. Sure. However I'm making a historical case: the best explanation for the Ascension narrative is that it is fictional. Had it actually occurred, it's absurd to think Mark, Matthew, and John would have failed to mention it. The fact is: it IS consistent with 1st century Jewish Cosmology, which is exactly what one would expect in a fictional account.

[JehovahsWitness]

... the best explanation for the Ascension narrative is that it is fictional.

That's definitely a matter of opinion ; your own has been duly noted.

... Had it actually occurred, it's absurd to think Mark, Matthew, and John would have failed to mention it. ....

I disagree. See above Post #4



JW

[fredonly]

- Firstly, it is generally agreed that the Christian tradition was originally oral , so the first century Christian community would have recieved first hand accounts of the ascension from those that witnessed the event (compare Acts 2:42). [

- When the need for written accounts eventually arose, it may well be that Luke's account had a sufficient degree of detail that the later writers saw no need to include the ascension itself.

In any case, all four gospels witness to a Christ risen from the dead and raised to heavenly glory (see below) which may well have been deemed as more important than his means of departure.

Your position depends entirely on faith, and I'm not claiming your faith can be proven false. Virtually anything can be rationalized. But accept the fact that rationalizations don't constitute compelling arguments that the relevent events actually occurred, and they don't constitute rational justifications for faith based beliefs. Embrace your faith, but don't fool yourself that it's based on reason.

[fredonly]

... the best explanation for the Ascension narrative is that it is fictional.

That's definitely a matter of opinion ; your own has been duly noted.

Feel free to find a flaw in my reasoning. Asserting it's true because the Bible says so, does not undercut my reasoning.

... Had it actually occurred, it's absurd to think Mark, Matthew, and John would have failed to mention it. ....

I disagree. See above Post #4
They didn't consider this monumental event important?!

[JehovahsWitness]

Your position depends entirely on faith...

I disagree ; you raised a speculative question as to why a particular subject was not written about. Regardless of whether the account is fictional or factual, it is a FACT that the bible canon does not include more than one detailled account of Christ's ascension. Lacking mind reading abilities, all one can do is speculate as to why this is the case. You propsed it "absurd" that, had it happened, the gospel writers would have ommitted it from their accounts (I cannot actually see and factual support for this conclusion). I propsed it entirely possible and presented some verifiable historical and textual support for such a conclusion.

Feel free to find a flaw in my reasoning.

See post #4

They didn't consider this monumental event important?!

See the 3rd (third) paragraph in post #4

[fredonly]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #9]
Why would anyone believe Jesus rose into the sky, as Luke relates?

All we have is a brief story by a non-eyewitness, outside Palestine, 50-70 years after the alleged event. So it's single attestested, and fails the criterion of dissimilarity.

And as I said, it's very unlikely the other evangelists would consider it too insignificant to write about. Flying into the sky was as rare as rising from the dead: no one had ever previously done either.