John 18:36 : ' Should Religion Govern? '

[Masterblaster]

Hello..

JehovahsWitness said this...

"JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES believe our organisation to be a spiritual not a socio-environmental one and those that take the lead have no authority to issue directives , nor to police matters that are under the domain of personal conscience."

John 18:36 "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. "

(I doubt if this was ever said by the Jesus figure, except in scripture.)

This is the common consensus of todays quasi-Christian world. I know nothing of Islam. Judaism appears to govern, ..maybe not.

The history about this , is exhaustive.

Questions:
Is Christianity governing our Democracies?
Is this influence justifiable?
Is this influence inevitable and representative?
Should Christianity declare its political agenda ?
Would it get any votes as an autonomous political party.? I personally doubt it.

Is all this 'cloak and dagger'.why?

What is the crux of this issue?

[TRANSPONDER]

...Atheists (as has been noted) tend to swing liberal...

Everyone swings liberal, when it is about their own rights. But, most people, when they get liberty and power, became instantly anti liberal towards ideas they don't like. By what I see, atheists are not different in that from most of the people. On the contrary, they seem to have stronger tendency for totalitarianism, maybe because fear can influence them more.

If you were humanist you would know better. You are merely assuming liberals think the way the extremists do. Liberalism honours to right of people to dissent, disagree and believe and say different things. That enables discussion. I think you are smart and honest enough to see that is the right thing to do. Dogmatics of either right or left,religious or otalitarian, are the ones who impose silence and censorship on others.

True, China is treating its' own people badly, but it's leaving religion alone, so long as it plays ball.

By what I know, "they’re closing churches, jailing pastors – and even rewriting scripture".

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... tion-bible

Yes, but they are doing that with everything. Inclusding internet, media and entertainment, as I gather is the case in Russia and I'm sure is the case in Iran. It is authoritarian dogam that is activere here which is the enemy of the humanist and human rights - which I gather you see is everyone's rights.i

Also:
Who are the Uyghurs and why is China being accused of genocide?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-22278037

I don't see how you can point to any Nato, European or Western country and say they are not theistic. Either Christianity is entwined in their culture and the thinking in their governments, or it is not. You shift the goalposts in a very obvious way to make the get out 'heavily theistic'. Both Russia and Ukraine are Orthodox and Putin has his Ex KGB buddies running the Orthodox church to keep it in line with dictatorship and warlike aggression.

It is interesting that you think western countries are religious. Atheists often tell me that they are not, when they try to show that secular countries are good. Russia may be Orthodox, but how can you say Ukraine is? Didn't they just ban the whole religion?

"Ukrainian parliament votes to ban Orthodox Church over alleged links with Russia"
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... ith-russia

But all you can do is fume about Trudeau, who plays almost no part in any of this. because he is a hate icon for the Religious Right to which I can guess you belong.

I think right and left are just different sides of socialism (=communism), I think I am above that evil doctrine.

[TRANSPONDER]

...Atheists (as has been noted) tend to swing liberal...

Everyone swings liberal, when it is about their own rights. But, most people, when they get liberty and power, became instantly anti liberal towards ideas they don't like. By what I see, atheists are not different in that from most of the people. On the contrary, they seem to have stronger tendency for totalitarianism, maybe because fear can influence them more.

If you were humanist you would know better. You are merely assuming liberals think the way the extremists do. Liberalism honours to right of people to dissent, disagree and believe and say different things. That enables discussion. I think you are smart and honest enough to see that is the right thing to do. Dogmatics of either right or left ,religious or totalitarian, are the ones who impose silence and censorship on others.

True, China is treating its' own people badly, but it's leaving religion alone, so long as it plays ball.

By what I know, "they’re closing churches, jailing pastors – and even rewriting scripture".

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... tion-bible

Yes, but they are doing that with everything. Including internet, media and entertainment, as I gather is the case in Russia, and I'm sure is the case in Iran. It is authoritarian dogma that is active here, which is the enemy of the humanist and human rights - which I gather you see is everyone's rights.

Also:
Who are the Uyghurs and why is China being accused of genocide?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-22278037

You have to understand Chinese thought, which goes way back. There is a long history of thinking that China has the right and duty to eliminate other cultures and make them Chinese.

I don't see how you can point to any Nato, European or Western country and say they are not theistic. Either Christianity is entwined in their culture and the thinking in their governments, or it is not. You shift the goalposts in a very obvious way to make the get out 'heavily theistic'. Both Russia and Ukraine are Orthodox and Putin has his Ex KGB buddies running the Orthodox church to keep it in line with dictatorship and warlike aggression.

It is interesting that you think western countries are religious. Atheists often tell me that they are not, when they try to show that secular countries are good. Russia may be Orthodox, but how can you say Ukraine is? Didn't they just ban the whole religion?

"Ukrainian parliament votes to ban Orthodox Church over alleged links with Russia"
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... ith-russia

Come now I think you are intelligent. Don't disappoint me. The amount of irreligion in European countries is (last survey) growing and is not pushed the way religion is in Muslim countries and America or Communist (1) places, but they allow the churches to have influence even at governmental level and play the religious flag where it benefits them. But they generally (everywhere) run on secularist lines, because they want to have executive power, not the religious leaders.

As to Ukraine, their Orthodox religion was the Russian - administered one. This was in the pre - Putin days when Russia and Ukraine were like partners. When Russia went back to Soviet - style thought (though using religion to gain some propaganda advantage) Ukraine, after the push from the occupied territories into Kiev and North from Crimea, they expelled Russian Church leaders from positions in the Ukranian orthodox church. What would your expect else?

But all you can do is fume about Trudeau, who plays almost no part in any of this. because he is a hate icon for the Religious Right to which I can guess you belong.

I think right and left are just different sides of socialism (=communism), I think I am above that evil doctrine.

You are almost there apart from the one - sided bias. I think we are nearly on the same page of seeing that extreme Left and Extreme Right are almost the same. Dogmatic Communism and Fascism are so alike they can just change cap -badges (I saw this in Myanmar back in the 80's when the 'Communist' Junta became a Military (effectively Fascist) one overnight - same people in charge.). I know what your bias is - the Rightwing propaganda machine in America blames socialism for everything and is even siding (insanely) with military aggressors, Russia and allied (by implication) powers, Iran, China and North Korea for heaven's sake. Can't you see that the Rightwing position you presumably embrace (by the propaganda you spout without any understanding of the reality) because you think it's Christian (it is) and will force religion back down everyone's throat before those goddless atheists started getting a voice.

(1) which it isn't - it is one party state authoritarianism which is more akin to Fascism than anything 'for the people'.

[Masterblaster]

Hello

Should Religion govern?

My opinion is this. Many denominations publicly remove themselves from active participation in civil affairs. They do not involve themselves in car taxation or refuse collection ,etc. They work from backstage, if at all. This leniency that is allowed has them voting to keep the local 'chicken ranch' open.

I call this the lapdog approach. It justifies itself with stuff like this (Paul)

Galatians 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control"

This Eastern/Greek Stoicism vibe allows for only considered levels of engagement in everyday life. It is not essentially ' of this world'. It is Divine Karma. It is turn the other cheek, give him your coat as well. There are many good reasons for this philosophy.

I do not buy that this is as it should be. I feel that Christians should show total commitment to the here and now of this life.
In the Jesus Parables, everyone is working, there are nets to be brought in, towers to be built, vineyards to be harvested and a Kingdom of God that needs to be established. The Jesus God demands that coins that are given, are doubled, he returns to collect rent and he takes his harvest seriously.

Essentially, the interpretation depends on the old Jewish/Christian Dichotomy...is Heaven on Earth or is Heaven in the Sky.

[Masterblaster]

Hello

Christian Democracy

Try sorting out this mess!

Is Christianity a way of life or a religious ideology!

From wiki....

"This has meant that Christian democracy has historically been considered centre-left on economics and centre-right on many social and moral issues."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_democracy

Thanks

[Masterblaster]

Hello

Can I start by declaring that I know very little and have accomplished less. That said, I have been considering the words of Mae von H.
Here is an example

MvH - "Real christian unity is probably rare in the west. I have known this and it’s awesome. It’s defined by a certain character of the members. It wasn’t defined by doctrine"

In another place, MvH mentioned the importance of "intention' in the Christian impetus.
I was thinking about Christianity in secular politics and the unfortunate debacle after the State of the Union speech with the young woman in the kitchen wearing the Crucifix. Wow!

Christianity ,properly presented would appear to be as popular as a long term health programme. Nobody runs on a lifetime manifesto. They need to take small steps and they need astuteness in the Land Politic. Selling yourself short is fatal.

You know the yes be yes, no be no thing. All yeses and all noes are contextualized in the world. The high moral ground should not be claimed.

Back to MvH,.....I think properly informed intention is an incredible tool if created. If your true collective intention is to help and love then that will dictate your path.

What should be the policy of Christian Democrats to immigration on the Southern Border. What would Jesus say?.Is it a manifesto worth pursuing.....Should Christians abstain from this decision.

I know nothing!
Thanks

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to Masterblaster in post #23]

My view is, the more pushy Christians (or any religion) are, the more there should be public pushback. If they want o be good citizens, that's fine. But the way I see it is - Christianity isn't true, and we should reject attempts to influence or control our lives, never mind government, even if they try to buy their way in by playing nice. No scammer ever bilked his mark by being unpleasant.

Hello

Christian Democracy

Try sorting out this mess!

Is Christianity a way of life or a religious ideology!

From wiki....

"This has meant that Christian democracy has historically been considered centre-left on economics and centre-right on many social and moral issues."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_democracy

Thanks

I have heard a number of believers say their religion is a 'way of life'. It may be a way of life for them, but, if they try to make it a way oflife for everyone, treat them as public enemy no.1.
[Replying to Masterblaster in post #25]I get only one reaction from that - as soon as Christians with a mindset of pushing the Christian agenda into and through politics, treat them as dangerous and caring only for their own interests, nobody else's. Secluralism by intent pushes for betterment for its'own sake, not for any particular religion or even politics.