John 18:36 : ' Should Religion Govern? '

[Masterblaster]

Hello..

JehovahsWitness said this...

"JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES believe our organisation to be a spiritual not a socio-environmental one and those that take the lead have no authority to issue directives , nor to police matters that are under the domain of personal conscience."

John 18:36 "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. "

(I doubt if this was ever said by the Jesus figure, except in scripture.)

This is the common consensus of todays quasi-Christian world. I know nothing of Islam. Judaism appears to govern, ..maybe not.

The history about this , is exhaustive.

Questions:
Is Christianity governing our Democracies?
Is this influence justifiable?
Is this influence inevitable and representative?
Should Christianity declare its political agenda ?
Would it get any votes as an autonomous political party.? I personally doubt it.

Is all this 'cloak and dagger'.why?

What is the crux of this issue?

[TRANSPONDER]

The crux is about authority.Who gets to rule the place. Historically organised religions with temporal social influence had become the other side of the coin that had kingship on the other side.Kingship and religious authority has often been an uneasy one.

Today when democracy (as it is called) or autocracy in too many instances, have replaced kingship, the relation between Church and state is still a disputed one. The US has excluded (by Constitution) the involvement of religion in rulership or of rulership in the doings of religion. In Europe, religion and rulership are more integrated and it has sorta reduced the need of religion to gain authority.

But recently it has all changed, with the US having religion pushing for administrative control, if not political. And outside with unholy mish mash of dictatorships, religious rule of government in Iran, secularist and barely tolerant of religion rule in China and a near imperial dynasty - cult in N.Korea, allied with a weird mix of Russian Orthodoxy where both the dictator and the High priest are ex KGB men and neo -communist authority and control ofpropaganda, showing final evidence of a belief I had since the 70's, that extreme left and extreme right were almost the same.

But, suppose we get past all that, should Christianity have a part in governance? Never mind looking at what Jesus supposedly said (which can be ignored by Christianity if inconvenient) I can see no good reason to run government along Christian lines, and plenty of reasons not to.

[Masterblaster]

Hello

TRANSPONDER says - "The crux is about authority.Who gets to rule the place."

Spot On!, T

TRANSPONDER says - " In Europe, religion and rulership are more integrated and it has sorta reduced the need of religion to gain authority"


This is a good point and is the cloak and dagger stuff that my OP alludes to. I would not confine this phenomena to Europe.

I have an issue with the last part of your post,T.

You say -"I can see no good reason to run government along Christian lines, and plenty of reasons not to."

How does it feel, to have a minority view, that is almost universally ignored, T???

[TRANSPONDER]

Hello

TRANSPONDER says - " In Europe, religion and rulership are more integrated and it has sorta reduced the need of religion to gain authority"


This is a good point and is the cloak and dagger stuff that my OP alludes to. I would not confine this phenomena to Europe.

I have an issue with the last part of your post,T.

You say -"I can see no good reason to run government along Christian lines, and plenty of reasons not to."

How does it feel, to have a minority view, that is almost universally ignored, T???

I'm not sure that's true. Democracy, as it is called, is at least claimed as a governing method, even by states that aren't democratic at all. This means that, even in religious states (and mostly they are) the religion does not by design influence the governance. Some governments do get more influenced, like in India sometimes a party may be driven by the interests of religion as much as practical policy.

Where I am, even the lingering traditions of governance have been dropped, despite Christians demanding that prayers be reinstated at council meetings. The response, to go and trundle their ecclesiastical hoops was in line with the views of the minority you think I am.

It is true that theism is in the majority, though there are a lot of other factors to question that supposition. But being a minority doesn't bother me. All religions as well as science theories were once in a minority until people came to accept them in numbers. Being a minority doesn't make one wrong any more than being in a majority doesn't make one right.

[Masterblaster]

Hello TRANSPONDER

You say - "This means that, even in religious states (and mostly they are) the religion does not by design influence the governance"


Maybe there is the illusion, somewhere, that this happens(maybe France) but , in actuality, the root tentacles of Religion are all invasive.There is a stand-off between two respectful adversaries, of Administration, who tacitly agree to divide the spoils of influence, that you state are the crux of this whole issue. To put this candidly, T, religion demands recognition and respect and Governance sees this as a price worth paying. Pick a Christian country, T and we can look at it , if you so wish!
Thanks

[TRANSPONDER]

Hello TRANSPONDER

You say - "This means that, even in religious states (and mostly they are) the religion does not by design influence the governance"


Maybe there is the illusion, somewhere, that this happens(maybe France) but , in actuality, the root tentacles of Religion are all invasive.There is a stand-off between two respectful adversaries, of Administration, who tacitly agree to divide the spoils of influence, that you state are the crux of this whole issue. To put this candidly, T, religion demands recognition and respect and Governance sees this as a price worth paying. Pick a Christian country, T and we can look at it , if you so wish!
Thanks

It depends on the vote, in an odd way. Unless a religion party gets its' Believer representative in, there is no way a government would welcome religious mentorship. They will play the religion card if it suits them, but they do not want churchmen telling them what to do, unless they are churchmen. If the price of Not making at least the appearance of being ok with the religion, if not God, is too high, they will do the deal.

There is only one thing more important than religious support for rulership, and that is the military.

[1213]

Questions:
Is Christianity governing our Democracies?
Is this influence justifiable?
Is this influence inevitable and representative?
Should Christianity declare its political agenda ?
Would it get any votes as an autonomous political party.? I personally doubt it.

Is all this 'cloak and dagger'.why?

What is the crux of this issue?

If people are Christian and they are major part in governments, then it can be said that Christianity is governing. If governments are full of atheists, then atheism is governing... If they are democratically elected, then I think it is justifiable and representative.

I think the message of Jesus is that people should be free individuals and love others, do no harm to others. So, if Christianity has an agenda, it should be that. And I would vote for it.

[TRANSPONDER]

Questions:
Is Christianity governing our Democracies?
Is this influence justifiable?
Is this influence inevitable and representative?
Should Christianity declare its political agenda ?
Would it get any votes as an autonomous political party.? I personally doubt it.

Is all this 'cloak and dagger'.why?

What is the crux of this issue?

If people are Christian and they are major part in governments, then it can be said that Christianity is governing. If governments are full of atheists, then atheism is governing... If they are democratically elected, then I think it is justifiable and representative.

I think the message of Jesus is that people should be free individuals and love others, do no harm to others. So, if Christianity has an agenda, it should be that. And I would vote for it.

Then it seems to me that you should vote for the humanist ticket, because the doctrine of the extremists seems to be 'hate the people God hates...which is the same people you do'.

The point of secularist administration is (as i hinted before) to stop administration along religious lines. Thus (as the US Constitution was supposed to do) politics is carried out without religious influence, even if the people running the place are religious.

That is what humanism is all about and those who favor religious -run politics can take a look at Iran.

[Masterblaster]

Hello

Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom 1776

"We the General Assembly of Virginia do enact [Be it enacted by the General Assembly] that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities."

On the surface this looks like a declaration of secularism. I'm not so sure. It looks like a religious armistice, that is agreed upon, among the religious. It creates a level playing field for the competing Christian faiths of the time. Religion was central to all aspects of the evolving United States and religious refrains enlivened the political discourse both then and now. When I say religion ,I mean Christian doctrines of the various and wonderful.

[Masterblaster]

Hello

The proof of the pudding is in the eating!

From Wiki...

"Roughly 48.9% of Americans are Protestants, 23.0% are Catholics, 1.8% are Mormons (members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints). Christianity was introduced during the period of European colonization. The United States has the world's largest Christian population"

Surely there is the smug smile of complacency to be seen somewhere among Christian circles. The ball is definitely in their court....just play out the clock!