Jesus is not an angel #2

[Wootah]

Hebrews 2:5 It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking. 6 But there is a place where someone has testified:

“What is mankind that you are mindful of them,
a son of man that you care for him?
7 You made them a little lower than the angels;
you crowned them with glory and honor
8 and put everything under their feet.”

In putting everything under them, God left nothing that is not subject to them. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to them. 9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

How can Jesus be an angel if he was temporarily lower than the angels?

Wouldn't it say he was temporarily the lowest of the angels?

A new argument!

Hebrews 2:5 It is not to angels that God has subjected the world to come.

Revelation 17:14O
They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.

God has not subjected the world to angels.

God has subjected the world to Jesus.

Therefore Jesus cannot be an angel.

Rebuttals?

[Eddie Ramos]

Your view of an Archangel differs from that of the JW site ...

No it does not.

source: glossary watchtower library : https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1001077023

CHIEF:
Definitions from Oxford Languages ·
1.
a leader or ruler of a people or clan.

Well, I certainly didn´t make it up. I copied and pasted from your site just like you did (¨God’s Word refers to Michael “the archangel.” (Jude 9) This term means “chief angel.”¨.). This is statement is correct. What the word "achangel" itself does not mean is "chief OF THE angels", that's the ROLE of the chief angel. So the fact that the JW site gives 2 contradictory definitions for the word "anchangel" shows you that the only trustworthy source is the Bible itself.

It's not that difficult to see if you read my last post. This compound word is made up of 2 singular words, but you are inferring meaning to what a role is, and that's just not being faithful. Chief Angel/messenger is what Christ/God is. That's exactly what the Angel of JEHOVAH teaches us. That JEHOVAH/Christ is not only THE Angel/messenger but the CHIEF ANGEL/Messenger. And God's ROLE as CHIEF ANGEL is to be the head of all other angels/messengers, whether the angelic beings or the true believers.

It's when you mix up the definition of what an archangel is and what his role is, that you find yourself in error. I hope this helps.

[JehovahsWitness]

What the word "achangel" itself does not mean is "chief OF THE angels", that's the ROLE of the chief angel.

I have no interest in debating what you believe on the topic (you believe what you believe) , I am only addressing the accusation that what I wrote does not reflect watchtower teaching. I provided a quotation for each element in my post, are you suggesting I posted forgeries ?

If you are saying the WATCHTOWER is wrong and I am wrong in harmony with the Watchower, my work here is done.

Well, I certainly didn´t make it up. I copied and pasted from your site just like you did (¨God’s Word refers to Michael “the archangel.” (Jude 9) This term means “chief angel.”¨.)

--> See post #9 [can Jesus be called AN ANGEL?] paragraphe #2 [my words] ; paragraphe #1 & #3 [Watchtower explanation]

[Wootah]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #9]

Where in the Bible is Jesus an archangel?

Where does the Bible say archangels are not angels?

Do you agree that if the writer of hebrews was considering all spiritual beings then my argument would prove Jesus is not an angel?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Wootah in post #3]

Wootah, may I ask a question? Was Jesus the one that was in the cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night when leading the Israelites out of Egypt?

It was God for sure. I think it was Jesus yes. I am open on the question. I'll do some research on it and get back to you

You agree that it was Jesus leading the Israelites out of Egypt. Let me bring your attention to a scripture that speaks of the individual within the cloud and the fire.

"And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them." (Exodus 24:19, KJV)

Thus Jesus is called an angel.

[Wootah]

[Replying to Wootah in post #3]

Wootah, may I ask a question? Was Jesus the one that was in the cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night when leading the Israelites out of Egypt?

It was God for sure. I think it was Jesus yes. I am open on the question. I'll do some research on it and get back to you

You agree that it was Jesus leading the Israelites out of Egypt. Let me bring your attention to a scripture that speaks of the individual within the cloud and the fire.

"And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them." (Exodus 24:19, KJV)

Thus Jesus is called an angel.

Yes that's a theophany. Part of the joy of reading scripture is the big reveal.

Who is the angel of the Lord? Who was in the fire? Who are the two Lords raining fire on Sodom. Who was in the ark? Who was in the temple? It was God the whole time.

In some ways our difference is that I look up, the Holy Spirit testifies to Jesus as God and you look down, Jesus is not God just an angel.

Whoops, I mean the argument of this thread is the Bible destroys that so you mean arch angel.

So who is the angel of the Lord to you?

[JehovahsWitness]

EXODUS 24:19, KJV

"And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them."

[Replying to Wootah in post #3]

Wootah, may I ask a question? Was Jesus the one that was in the cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night when leading the Israelites out of Egypt?

It was God for sure. I think it was Jesus yes. I am open on the question. I'll do some research on it and get back to you

I'll be interested in the result of your research because if you conclude it really was Jesus, then you would have to admit Jesus is called an angel in scripture.




JW

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Wootah in post #3]

Wootah, may I ask a question? Was Jesus the one that was in the cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night when leading the Israelites out of Egypt?

It was God for sure. I think it was Jesus yes. I am open on the question. I'll do some research on it and get back to you

You agree that it was Jesus leading the Israelites out of Egypt. Let me bring your attention to a scripture that speaks of the individual within the cloud and the fire.

"And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them." (Exodus 24:19, KJV)

Thus Jesus is called an angel.

Yes that's a theophany. Part of the joy of reading scripture is the big reveal.

Who is the angel of the Lord? Who was in the fire? Who are the two Lords raining fire on Sodom. Who was in the ark? Who was in the temple? It was God the whole time.

In some ways our difference is that I look up, the Holy Spirit testifies to Jesus as God and you look down, Jesus is not God just an angel.

Whoops, I mean the argument of this thread is the Bible destroys that so you mean arch angel.

So who is the angel of the Lord to you?

Isn't it actually clear that the Bible calls Jesus an angel, that this angel brought Israel out of Egypt? Why try to add something to that? He is "the angel of the Lord," the highest angel---the archangel. There is only one archangel, notwithstanding that religions say there are three or four. Gabriel is not an archangel, for example.

God always sends His messengers or representatives to Earth to carry out His will. He is never literally here. He is "with" us from heaven, just as Jesus said that he would be "with" us until the end of the age, though he has been in heaven since he rose after his resurrection. (Matthew 28:20)

[Wootah]

EXODUS 24:19, KJV

"And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them."

[Replying to Wootah in post #3]

Wootah, may I ask a question? Was Jesus the one that was in the cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night when leading the Israelites out of Egypt?

It was God for sure. I think it was Jesus yes. I am open on the question. I'll do some research on it and get back to you

I'll be interested in the result of your research because if you conclude it really was Jesus, then you would have to admit Jesus is called an angel in scripture.




JW

And how does your theology hold up. You are declaring Jesus is an angel and arguing that he isn't in the same thread.

The angel of the Lord is a title for me. Angel is also a messenger and an angel can be any spiritual being depending on the context.

[Wootah]

[Replying to Wootah in post #3]

Wootah, may I ask a question? Was Jesus the one that was in the cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night when leading the Israelites out of Egypt?

It was God for sure. I think it was Jesus yes. I am open on the question. I'll do some research on it and get back to you

You agree that it was Jesus leading the Israelites out of Egypt. Let me bring your attention to a scripture that speaks of the individual within the cloud and the fire.

"And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them." (Exodus 24:19, KJV)

Thus Jesus is called an angel.

Yes that's a theophany. Part of the joy of reading scripture is the big reveal.

Who is the angel of the Lord? Who was in the fire? Who are the two Lords raining fire on Sodom. Who was in the ark? Who was in the temple? It was God the whole time.

In some ways our difference is that I look up, the Holy Spirit testifies to Jesus as God and you look down, Jesus is not God just an angel.

Whoops, I mean the argument of this thread is the Bible destroys that so you mean arch angel.

So who is the angel of the Lord to you?

Isn't it actually clear that the Bible calls Jesus an angel, that this angel brought Israel out of Egypt? Why try to add something to that? He is "the angel of the Lord," the highest angel---the archangel. There is only one archangel, notwithstanding that religions say there are three or four. Gabriel is not an archangel, for example.

God always sends His messengers or representatives to Earth to carry out His will. He is never literally here. He is "with" us from heaven, just as Jesus said that he would be "with" us until the end of the age, though he has been in heaven since he rose after his resurrection. (Matthew 28:20)

Yes so now if you say Jesus is an angel then read the beginning post. You are taking a clear statement the angel of the Lord and I bet you will also say that he is not an angel.

But we know scripture cannot contradict scripture and so Jesus is not an angel and the angel of the Lord is a title.

So we both take the same title 'angel of the lord' and I say Jesus is God and you say Jesus is an archangel.

So I ask further:

Where in the Bible is Jesus an archangel?
Where does the Bible say archangels are not angels?
Where is Jesus called anything that supports your view of who you think he is?
Do you agree that if the writer of hebrews was considering all spiritual beings then my initial argument would prove Jesus is not an angel?


The Bible is many things but one that might help you is that Jesus is like the undercover boss in the tv show.

[JehovahsWitness]

The angel of the Lord is a title for me. Angel is also a messenger and an angel can be any spiritual being depending on the context.

I agree. So, nos we are both on the same page, how would you would you respond to the point below ...

God has not subjected the world to angels.

God has subjected the world to Jesus.

Therefore Jesus cannot be an angel.