Jesus is not an angel #2

[Wootah]

Hebrews 2:5 It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking. 6 But there is a place where someone has testified:

“What is mankind that you are mindful of them,
a son of man that you care for him?
7 You made them a little lower than the angels;
you crowned them with glory and honor
8 and put everything under their feet.”

In putting everything under them, God left nothing that is not subject to them. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to them. 9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

How can Jesus be an angel if he was temporarily lower than the angels?

Wouldn't it say he was temporarily the lowest of the angels?

A new argument!

Hebrews 2:5 It is not to angels that God has subjected the world to come.

Revelation 17:14O
They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.

God has not subjected the world to angels.

God has subjected the world to Jesus.

Therefore Jesus cannot be an angel.

Rebuttals?

[Wootah]

The angel of the Lord is a title for me. Angel is also a messenger and an angel can be any spiritual being depending on the context.

I agree. So, nos we are both on the same page, how would you would you respond to the point below ...

God has not subjected the world to angels.

God has subjected the world to Jesus.

Therefore Jesus cannot be an angel.

I agree with that. Jesus is not a created spirit being like an angel.

So I ask further:

Where in the Bible is Jesus an archangel?
Where does the Bible say archangels are not angels?
Where is Jesus called anything that supports your view of who you think he is?
Do you agree that if the writer of hebrews was considering all spiritual beings then my initial argument would prove Jesus is not an angel?

[JehovahsWitness]

The angel of the Lord is a title for me. Angel is also a messenger and an angel can be any spiritual being depending on the context.

I agree. So, nos we are both on the same page, how would you would you respond to the point below ...

God has not subjected the world to angels.

God has subjected the world to Jesus.

Therefore Jesus cannot be an angel.

I agree with that. Jesus is not a created spirit being like an angel.

Lets stick with the angels for now because this thread states in its heading (that you write) {quote} "Jesus is not a angel" end quote. So to clarify , after your research do you now believe Jesus *IS* an angel?




JW

[Wootah]

The angel of the Lord is a title for me. Angel is also a messenger and an angel can be any spiritual being depending on the context.

I agree. So, nos we are both on the same page, how would you would you respond to the point below ...

God has not subjected the world to angels.

God has subjected the world to Jesus.

Therefore Jesus cannot be an angel.

I agree with that. Jesus is not a created spirit being like an angel.

Lets stick with the angels for now because this thread states in its heading (that you write) {quote} "Jesus is not a angel" end quote. So to clarify , after your research do you now believe Jesus *IS* an angel?




JW

No be fair. Until your posts in the thread I never knew you considered Jesus a non angel. For me angel has always been a cover word for all created spirit being. I am learning about JW beliefs as we go. So need for colour and random capitalisation.

Jesus is not an angel. Angel of the Lord is a title. The being called the Angel of the Lord is given worship due to God at different points. We could discuss that in another thread.

[JehovahsWitness]

.... For me angel has always been a cover word for all created spirit being

Okay , since you do not believe Jesus is a created being this means -->, you do not believe Jesus is an angel. Is that correct?




JW

EXODUS 24:19, KJV

"And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them."

[2ndpillar2]

Hebrews 2:5 It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking. 6 But there is a place where someone has testified:

“What is mankind that you are mindful of them,
a son of man that you care for him?
7 You made them a little lower than the angels;
you crowned them with glory and honor
8 and put everything under their feet.”

In putting everything under them, God left nothing that is not subject to them. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to them. 9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

How can Jesus be an angel if he was temporarily lower than the angels?

Wouldn't it say he was temporarily the lowest of the angels?

A new argument!

Hebrews 2:5 It is not to angels that God has subjected the world to come.

Revelation 17:14O
They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.

God has not subjected the world to angels.

God has subjected the world to Jesus.

Therefore Jesus cannot be an angel.

Rebuttals?

As Yeshua said, the "ruler (Lord) of the world is coming, and he has nothing in me" (John 14:30). As shown in Revelation 13, the Lord of the kings (beasts) is the dragon (Rev 13:4), who is Satan (Rev 20:2). Satan is a fallen angel and is represented in Daniel 10 as a prince of the Gentiles/Greece, who fights the Lord of Israel, who according to Daniel, was described as a "certain man", and "Lord", and one who "resembled a human being" (Daniel 20). As for Hebrews, it is written by an unknown author, with credit often going to the false prophet Paul. No wonder you seem confused. Yeshua describes himself as the "son of man", who will not return until "immediately after the tribulation" (Mt 24:29-30). In the meantime Yeshua sits at the right hand of God, waiting for the LORD to make Yeshua's enemies a footstool for his feet. (Psalms 110).

[Wootah]

As Yeshua said, the "ruler (Lord) of the world is coming, and he has nothing in me" (John 14:30). As shown in Revelation 13, the Lord of the kings (beasts) is the dragon (Rev 13:4), who is Satan (Rev 20:2). Satan is a fallen angel and is represented in Daniel 10 as a prince of the Gentiles/Greece, who fights the Lord of Israel, who according to Daniel, was described as a "certain man", and "Lord", and one who "resembled a human being" (Daniel 20). As for Hebrews, it is written by an unknown author, with credit often going to the false prophet Paul. No wonder you seem confused. Yeshua describes himself as the "son of man", who will not return until "immediately after the tribulation" (Mt 24:29-30). In the meantime Yeshua sits at the right hand of God, waiting for the LORD to make Yeshua's enemies a footstool for his feet. (Psalms 110).

False prophet Paul. Can you make a thread on that because this thread and forum considers the Bible is valid?

Also nothing you wrote was for or against the topic.

[onewithhim]

EXODUS 24:19, KJV

"And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them."

[Replying to Wootah in post #3]

Wootah, may I ask a question? Was Jesus the one that was in the cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night when leading the Israelites out of Egypt?

It was God for sure. I think it was Jesus yes. I am open on the question. I'll do some research on it and get back to you

I'll be interested in the result of your research because if you conclude it really was Jesus, then you would have to admit Jesus is called an angel in scripture.




JW

And how does your theology hold up. You are declaring Jesus is an angel and arguing that he isn't in the same thread.

The angel of the Lord is a title for me. Angel is also a messenger and an angel can be any spiritual being depending on the context.

How did JehovahsWitness argue that Jesus was not an angel? It seems clear that he was.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Wootah in post #3]

Wootah, may I ask a question? Was Jesus the one that was in the cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night when leading the Israelites out of Egypt?

It was God for sure. I think it was Jesus yes. I am open on the question. I'll do some research on it and get back to you

You agree that it was Jesus leading the Israelites out of Egypt. Let me bring your attention to a scripture that speaks of the individual within the cloud and the fire.

"And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them." (Exodus 24:19, KJV)

Thus Jesus is called an angel.

Yes that's a theophany. Part of the joy of reading scripture is the big reveal.

Who is the angel of the Lord? Who was in the fire? Who are the two Lords raining fire on Sodom. Who was in the ark? Who was in the temple? It was God the whole time.

In some ways our difference is that I look up, the Holy Spirit testifies to Jesus as God and you look down, Jesus is not God just an angel.

Whoops, I mean the argument of this thread is the Bible destroys that so you mean arch angel.

So who is the angel of the Lord to you?

Isn't it actually clear that the Bible calls Jesus an angel, that this angel brought Israel out of Egypt? Why try to add something to that? He is "the angel of the Lord," the highest angel---the archangel. There is only one archangel, notwithstanding that religions say there are three or four. Gabriel is not an archangel, for example.

God always sends His messengers or representatives to Earth to carry out His will. He is never literally here. He is "with" us from heaven, just as Jesus said that he would be "with" us until the end of the age, though he has been in heaven since he rose after his resurrection. (Matthew 28:20)

Yes so now if you say Jesus is an angel then read the beginning post. You are taking a clear statement the angel of the Lord and I bet you will also say that he is not an angel.

But we know scripture cannot contradict scripture and so Jesus is not an angel and the angel of the Lord is a title.

So we both take the same title 'angel of the lord' and I say Jesus is God and you say Jesus is an archangel.

So I ask further:

Where in the Bible is Jesus an archangel?
Where does the Bible say archangels are not angels?
Where is Jesus called anything that supports your view of who you think he is?
Do you agree that if the writer of hebrews was considering all spiritual beings then my initial argument would prove Jesus is not an angel?


The Bible is many things but one that might help you is that Jesus is like the undercover boss in the tv show.

You have already agreed that Jesus was in the cloud and fire that led the Israelites out of Egypt. So you answered your own question about Where in the Bible is Jesus an archangel.
There is no place in the Bible that says that archangels are not angels. You are attempting to muddy the argument with questions that don't make sense.
Daniel 12:1,2 pictures Michael as being an individual that could only describe Jesus. Michael is the Archangel, and so it follows that he is Jesus as well. Who else has the right to stand up for his people at the end of the wicked world? Who else does the Bible say is going to come back and destroy the wicked at Armageddon, after the Great Tribulation? Matthew 24 mentions only Jesus Christ. It is he who is associated with the things mentioned in Daniel. If Michael was not Jesus and yet he stood up to defend his people, where is a mention of him in Matthew chapter 24? Only Jesus has those privileges outlined in Daniel 12:1,2. Only he is mentioned. If Michael was the "great prince," where is he included in the events of Matthew 24?

I think that very well supports my view of who I think Jesus is.
I don't understand your question about Hebrews.

[2ndpillar2]

As Yeshua said, the "ruler (Lord) of the world is coming, and he has nothing in me" (John 14:30). As shown in Revelation 13, the Lord of the kings (beasts) is the dragon (Rev 13:4), who is Satan (Rev 20:2). Satan is a fallen angel and is represented in Daniel 10 as a prince of the Gentiles/Greece, who fights the Lord of Israel, who according to Daniel, was described as a "certain man", and "Lord", and one who "resembled a human being" (Daniel 20). As for Hebrews, it is written by an unknown author, with credit often going to the false prophet Paul. No wonder you seem confused. Yeshua describes himself as the "son of man", who will not return until "immediately after the tribulation" (Mt 24:29-30). In the meantime Yeshua sits at the right hand of God, waiting for the LORD to make Yeshua's enemies a footstool for his feet. (Psalms 110).

False prophet Paul. Can you make a thread on that because this thread and forum considers the Bible is valid?

Also nothing you wrote was for or against the topic.

Anyone who thinks that 1 plus 1 plus 1 is equal to 1, as with the Trinity doctrine, which came out of the Nicene Council of 325 A.D., is in need of remedial math. Does the forum refute the Jews, who do not consider the writing of Paul as valid? Do they refute the Eastern church which has historically had their own canon, which did not correspond to the Western church? What did the church do with those who disagree, such as the Arians? Nor do the Jews even look on the NT as valid. The thread of Paul as the false prophet is possible, but I would have to get motivated to do so. You could start one, and I could jump in when I have the time. You could start with Mt 7:12-27, then go to Matthew 5:19, then go to Matthew 24:26, then go to Revelation 16:13, then go to Matthew 24:24-35.
As for my previous response, it must have been deeper than I thought. It is about angels, such as the prince of Greece, and the son of man, who had helper angels with regard to his heavenly battles with respect to Daniel 10. The point was that the "son of man" has 7 angels in his hand (Revelation 1:16-20), who represent the 7 churches, who are supposed to do the will of God, but apparently fall short (Rev 2).

[onewithhim]

As Yeshua said, the "ruler (Lord) of the world is coming, and he has nothing in me" (John 14:30). As shown in Revelation 13, the Lord of the kings (beasts) is the dragon (Rev 13:4), who is Satan (Rev 20:2). Satan is a fallen angel and is represented in Daniel 10 as a prince of the Gentiles/Greece, who fights the Lord of Israel, who according to Daniel, was described as a "certain man", and "Lord", and one who "resembled a human being" (Daniel 20). As for Hebrews, it is written by an unknown author, with credit often going to the false prophet Paul. No wonder you seem confused. Yeshua describes himself as the "son of man", who will not return until "immediately after the tribulation" (Mt 24:29-30). In the meantime Yeshua sits at the right hand of God, waiting for the LORD to make Yeshua's enemies a footstool for his feet. (Psalms 110).

False prophet Paul. Can you make a thread on that because this thread and forum considers the Bible is valid?

Also nothing you wrote was for or against the topic.

Anyone who thinks that 1 plus 1 plus 1 is equal to 1, as with the Trinity doctrine, which came out of the Nicene Council of 325 A.D., is in need of remedial math. Does the forum refute the Jews, who do not consider the writing of Paul as valid?

I would think the forum might refute the Jews. After all, they didn't accept Christ.