Genesis 19: Sodom and Gomorrah?

[Masterblaster]

Hello

Genesis 19: Sodom and Gomorrah

"19 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground; 2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. 6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

Could this ever have happened?
Of course it could.

'Reno and Las Vegas'

Care to take a look?

In the middle of a 'religious 'country, the Biblical Sodom and Gomorrah, have been rebuilt,...bring protection. I have been in both these places. Apparently not all chicken ranches serve chicken???

Question - Is Biblical morality redundant in Nevada.?

(Will God send two more Angels? Good luck getting volunteers!)

[Masterblaster]

Hello TRANSPONDER

You say - "And I really don't care to get dragged into a moral discussion about the present world. Except to say that it should be addressed as a social issue and has no place in a religious discussion forum."

I showed this to a neutral person and they were mystified
How can you justify this?
What is your purpose here?
How can this stance be an informed one?
How can you be consistent in this?
Do you want to retract or modify this statement?
Even, clarify it?

Am I as a theist, a member of the modern world?
Are my ideas designed to be impactful now?
Did you accept my earlier point that your ignoring the influence of Christianity in the United States today, is just obstinate denialism. There are lots of Christian Churches in Nevada which is also, the Divorce Centre of the Nation.
How does that tie in with this Biblical Theism that you love to hate. ..but don't mention ,the slots or the whores and pimps in 2024. Thailand is almost as bad ..or good ! ( depending on your perspective, or preference).. the slots or the sluts or the toy-boys?
Then there is Amsterdam??? Sodom and Gomoorah would struggle to regain its niche on todays competitive sex environment. They were the first to attempt to 'do in' Angels , so that makes them truly legit in gaming circles,..I suppose. On reflection ,Sodom and Gomorrah, 'angel fixing' is tailor made for the modern cartoon porn market, on the w.w.w.

Thanks

[Masterblaster]

Hello

Religion(Theism), is about real everyday life.
It was never , just a nice idea.

Imagine killing weeds in a yard with your feet. What are the problems. Why can you not do it?

This phobia about attaching Theism to the ' here and now' ,is as proliferated amongst the Scriptural Theists as it is within the anti-theists amongst us.

Get Real, just as old religion attempted to do, or continue to catch bubbles with your friends.

Is a whore, a whore?
Is a whore a good thing?

At least Jesus did not pretend that the person wasn't there.

Is Biblical morality redundant in Nevada?


Is Nevada State, a legitimate moral entity?

Let your beliefs speak!

Thanks

[Masterblaster]

Hello

All this salacious 'Moral Depravity', on my thread forces me to reminisce back to the Declaration of Independence and those depraved injuns, mentioned therein. George III, was stirring them....

(2)He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions."


We cleaned up Nevada nicely, after that!
Apparently the injuns got a piece of the action!
They still have it.
From wiki...
"Native American gaming comprises casinos, bingo halls, slots halls and other gambling operations on Indian reservations or other tribal lands in the United States. Because these areas have tribal sovereignty, states have limited ability to forbid gambling there, as codified by the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act of 1988. As of 2011, there were 460 gambling operations run by 240 tribes, with a total annual revenue of $27 billion.'

This is called RIGHTeousness with a Capital R.
On a more somber note, how long would An Angel Audit of Reno and Las Vegas take in 2024, assuming a team of two were assigned?
In my opinion ,the U.S.A., is in 2024, the World's worst Christian joke!
Thanks

[Masterblaster]

Hello

Lyon County, Nevada...wiki

"An advisory question about Lyon County's legal brothels was put on the 2018 ballot. "Lyon County Question 1" asked whether or not voters wanted to rescind Title 3, Chapter 5, which is the Lyon County Brothel Ordinance. Out of 20,674 votes cast, 4,031 voted to have it rescinded, and 16,643 voted to keep the brothels open in Lyon County."

60+% Republican since forever!
40% of Nevadians Religiously Unaffiliated

Here is the Maths

60% Christian = 20% vote to close Brothels in their back yard??? Apparently Lot is still alive and kicking.

Genesis 19:"8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes"
Thanks

[TRANSPONDER]

Hello TRANSPONDER

You say - "And I really don't care to get dragged into a moral discussion about the present world. Except to say that it should be addressed as a social issue and has no place in a religious discussion forum."

I showed this to a neutral person and they were mystified
How can you justify this?
What is your purpose here?
How can this stance be an informed one?
How can you be consistent in this?
Do you want to retract or modify this statement?
Even, clarify it?

Am I as a theist, a member of the modern world?
Are my ideas designed to be impactful now?
Did you accept my earlier point that your ignoring the influence of Christianity in the United States today, is just obstinate denialism. There are lots of Christian Churches in Nevada which is also, the Divorce Centre of the Nation.
How does that tie in with this Biblical Theism that you love to hate. ..but don't mention ,the slots or the whores and pimps in 2024. Thailand is almost as bad ..or good ! ( depending on your perspective, or preference).. the slots or the sluts or the toy-boys?
Then there is Amsterdam??? Sodom and Gomoorah would struggle to regain its niche on todays competitive sex environment. They were the first to attempt to 'do in' Angels , so that makes them truly legit in gaming circles,..I suppose. On reflection ,Sodom and Gomorrah, 'angel fixing' is tailor made for the modern cartoon porn market, on the w.w.w.

Thanks

I don't care to whom you showed it. I deem that discussion a matter that is not relevant or helpful to the discussion and so I don't care to discuss it. I don't have to justify that to you or anyone else. If someone else wants to debate the matter with, you, fine, but you are wearing out your fingers to no purpose in trying to bully or coerce me into a discussion that doesn't interest me.

Since you ask, my purpose here is to show that the claims for Bible veracity are wrong, false and misguiding and only have traction because people are misrepresented to and do not read the thing with attention. So I'll do that for them I'll show them how the Bible fails, and get into some epistemology and science, too, because for the Bible to be critiqued through logical reason and scientific evidence, one must argue why logic and science is valid.

Apart from discussing the Morality argument, Abiogenesis argument, consciousness argument and cosmic origins argument (though in fact they do not logically indicate any particular god) and the usual flawed apologetics fallacies, Bible reliability is my ticket, not putting society to rights. So I'm not going to get into what I consider a fruitless discussion, not to say off topic, and for me is simply pointless because frankly, and this is perhaps a small reason why...humanity is messed up about sex as a sin or God's expression for love, something to suppressed or embraced and until we take a logical and scientific approach and not a mess of conflicting instincts and traditional prejudices, we are never going to get it right. I don't discuss it because humanity hasn't got the basics to even start to reasonably discuss the matter.

[Masterblaster]

Hello

Why point the finger at the Lyon County Christians?
I do not ,really.

Look at the Bible they are using?
With uninformed interpretation, it is a carteblanche for anything goes. Many Bible critics have said as much. No argument here! In fairness the auld guy was drunk when he shagged his daughters.

Let us finish Genesis 19

"36 So both of Lot’s daughters became pregnant by their father. 37 The older daughter had a son, and she named him Moab[g]; he is the father of the Moabites of today. 38 The younger daughter also had a son, and she named him Ben-Ammi: he is the father of the Ammonites of today"

Thanks

[TRANSPONDER]

That at least has a point. But not much of one and irrelevant really. It is only anything more than prejudiced finger -pointing by Bible -crtitics (oh yes ) as countering Bible believers trying to claim the High moral ground. Lot's family are depicted as a bad lot, and just like Cain, only exist to set a Babylon -period origin -story (I do not confidently believe) basis why all their descendants were fit only to be the slaves of Israel, and anyone who does not understand that does not understand the Bible.

[Masterblaster]

That at least has a point. But not much of one and irrelevant really. It is only anything more than prejudiced finger -pointing by Bible -crtitics (oh yes ) as countering Bible believers trying to claim the High moral ground. Lot's family are depicted as a bad lot, and just like Cain, only exist to set a Babylon -period origin -story (I do not confidently believe) basis why all their descendants were fit only to be the slaves of Israel, and anyone who does not understand that does not understand the Bible.

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Hello TRANSPONDER

There is a logical flaw in you Bible summation here. If the Bible's continued narrative was as specifically
controlled and precise as you would have us believe, then it truly would be dangerous. This is where Biblical Literalism, falls down as well. Take all this as a narrative, ..it is barely historical and the ancient myth of a nation. It is an attempt at establishing a monotheistic culture within a Nomadic group. Give it some rope!

Where my problem is , ...when a hogwash extrapolation that is full of Biblical morality, combines with accepted secular ( non-theistic) norms to create the absurdities that are the Laws of the State of Nevada.

At least in the Bible story there was the affirmation that Sodom and Gomorrah were unacceptable, before God.

Now, anything goes!

Is the sex industry moral?
Is gambling good?
Is greed good?

Simple questions!

Thanks

[TRANSPONDER]

In western society morality is seen through a Christian distorting glass. Just as in countries with other religions, they are adapted to their Holybook mores. Yet they are often surprisingly the same.

This is because morality and ethics are largely instinctive. We do not understand these instincts let alone are in a position to approach them logically and scientifically. That is why we have a long way to go before we can sort out the mess our heads are in. All I know is, Holy Books and the religions they spawned are not the answer and never were.

[Masterblaster]

Hello TRANSPONDER

You say - "This is because morality and ethics are largely instinctive. We do not understand these instincts let alone are in a position to approach them logically and scientifically. That is why we have a long way to go before we can sort out the mess our heads are in. All I know is, Holy Books and the religions they spawned are not the answer and never were"

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I think that this is very good. The last sentence, might not be totally true, as the Bible is at least, an honest attempt at creating social morality.

I too, have gone back to instinctive basics to try and understand some of the issues that we are looking at.
Take something simple, like the fact that sex -drive naturally reduces in women(generally), much earlier than it does in men. Women feel sexiest between 27 and 45 yrs of age. Men are good to 70.(generally)

This is just a natural fundamental. It is a card that we have been dealt.You are correct, T, that our heads are all over the place on these matters.

Hats off to Islam who bit the bullet and prescribed alcohol as a fool's medicine.

A person I know has had to give up the drink for health reasons and his wife has him spending two weeks on vacation, in Bordeaux. Revenge is a dish, best served cold.

Thanks