Gut Feelings Equals Objective?

[POI]

Otseng stated the following: "Objective morality is more an intuitive sense and it's not defined by a list of rules."

For debate: Seems Otseng is stating that if one has strong intuition(s) about something or things, it is objectively moral?

[Purple Knight]

For debate: Seems Otseng is stating that if one has strong intuition(s) about something or things, it is objectively moral?

I have been working under this assumption. I think Osteng is correct. I don't think people actually disagree on core principles.

For example: You shouldn't hurt people if you can help it.

This would seem to be a massive area of contention in modern morality, but it's not. People on one side simply disagree that something really hurts someone, or they think it's not practical to commit to making laws about it. They don't disagree on the core principle which is that hurting someone else is immoral if you can reasonably not hurt them.

[POI]

Seems there has been a recent turn of events. Otseng now states the following:

"As for intuition, it is not a reliable exclusive guide in all situations. If it were, there'd be no need for any rules or laws."

I guess this means intuitions do not reveal objective morality? So, what does?

[1213]

If your gut intuition tells you something which agrees with God, it's right. If it does not, you are being derailed by "sin" or "evil". Is this the gist of it?

I think it is an interesting question, can a gut feeling really tell something that is not true. And could it be something else than a gut feeling, if you are derailed. Difficult to know surely. I believe everyone knows the truth deep inside of them, but some just don't want to hear it.

Please provide an example of a gut feeling we all instinctually agree upon, but just don't want to hear it?

Gut feeling is too arbitrary to me. That is why I say only, I believe everyone knows deep inside that Bible God is real.

[TRANSPONDER]

If your gut intuition tells you something which agrees with God, it's right. If it does not, you are being derailed by "sin" or "evil". Is this the gist of it?

I think it is an interesting question, can a gut feeling really tell something that is not true. And could it be something else than a gut feeling, if you are derailed. Difficult to know surely. I believe everyone knows the truth deep inside of them, but some just don't want to hear it.

Please provide an example of a gut feeling we all instinctually agree upon, but just don't want to hear it?

Gut feeling is too arbitrary to me. That is why I say only, I believe everyone knows deep inside that Bible God is real.

You are deluding yourself. Mind, I do have evidence of an instinct of religious belief, but quite clearly, this does not relate to any particular god. The channelling of this innate faith (which can be directed to other things, not just religion) to a particular god and a particular religion is the delusion, and quite demonstrably so just from the point given above.

[TRANSPONDER]

Seems there has been a recent turn of events. Otseng now states the following:

"As for intuition, it is not a reliable exclusive guide in all situations. If it were, there'd be no need for any rules or laws."

I guess this means intuitions do not reveal objective morality? So, what does?

Human reason. We can see the instincts for social behavior in animals, both the good and the bad. As society gets more complicated, the rules that worked in a family and tribe have to be codified into laws, and a system pf justice beyond social censure and exclusion (though those are as handy today as they were in the neolithic) had to be devised, adapted to the culture and people and updated regularly.

That and not a god -given morality is what is the basis of ethics and morality, and if it isn't 'Objective' enough for the religious, that is their error in supposing that it should be. The delusion goes even further - into denial, because there's a serious problem as well as error in that the ethics of religion has also to be updated and indeed, it is. But the religious delude themselves that it obsolete code of morals hasn't been updated and should (selectively) been imposed.

That's the danger of religion and if it can be seen by the denialists in Certain Other cultures, then they should realise the same applies to their own religion.

[POI]

I believe everyone knows deep inside that Bible God is real.

Then you are wrong. I believe the exact opposite, that deep down, many do not believe in the Bible God. Some do, some don't. Why?

1) Actions speak louder than words. Many act as if the Bible God does not really exist. If I thought the Bible God was real, I would live my life quite differently. My perspective on life would also be quite different.
2) Many were not brought up in this specific set of beliefs. Thus, if they are to hear about this God in passing, they would easily dismiss its claims, just like you might, when hearing of some alternative God(s) claim(s).
3) Deep down, I think the supernatural claims for Jesus are B.S.

[TRANSPONDER]

I suspect that's right. It's a bit like the nativity. I haven't taken a survey of course, but I suspect many would doubt that it is exactly true, many think it happened, sorta, but the story got mixed up and some have a cosy feeling about it transmitted with there mere fact of 200 years of tradition.

or that may be too particular. The religious feeling that makes humans do religious stuff is an innate instinct. I believe that. I also believe that turning it into a superhuman controlling everything is a myth; a delusion.

I am very curious about the human need that requires monumental construction todo with these questions of death, good an evil, fate and other things beyond our control. Not just doing a deal or a purchase of favors, but trying to get a handlyeon things that affects us but we can't control.

Maybe it's a human instinct to create patterns and give them significance. I've done the 'stepping on pavement cracks' one myself, Just a game, but how easy to turn it into a task that will earn a wish. Not like the idea of a Sacrifice (of time or money) in echange for some divine brownie -points.

Which is why I think Church has to be dull, in order to achieve that feeling of having done a Duty.If ever it becomes like a rock concert, it is just done for the self and the group, not for a god, even if it existed.

[Masterblaster]

Hello

Look at this conversation, Please!

1213- "But, maybe it is possible that the gut feeling comes from something that exists independently and therefore can be in a way objective."

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Masterblaster Reply
That makes sense to me in this way
Accept
(a)there is naturally a human bias involved
(b) this bias needs to be calibrated against
(c) objectivity must almost be counter-intuitive
(d) to roll with the bias, creates fantasy
(e) I think that this is TRANSPONDER's point.

When you see the weird extractions that many theists reach within their doctrines, not only are they counter- intuitive but they are ridiculous as well. They compound their ridicule by asserting to have found the true path to Divine wisdom and that it is a specific path that God clearly and obviously made for mankind?
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TRANSPONDER -"I totally agree. But I don't get, when you almost see that human mental perceptions are the answer, you are still batting for the Bible? Why? "

Why!!

To observe and attempt to assimilate objective morality we need to battle against natural human bias. TRANSPONDER, would appear to be in agreement with this( I hope). Our look must include as much of the whole picture as we are humanly capable of receiving. Polarized references are necessary to even get a semblance of objectivity. The arbitary aspects of the forest fire are too many for a human to evaluate. Just watch it burn.

I am trying to get to TRANSPONDER's 'Why?' I mentioned the word cohesion and he nearly lost it.I know why. He predicted a line of argument that I might use. I will not,talk about cohesion except to say that T, needs to examine his aversion to the concept. I was thinking about cohesion, there is cohesion within the parts of a person, there is cohesion within the inanimate parts of a galaxy. (I think?). Discuss this yourselves, if you so wish.

Why am I a theist. Why do I promote the Bible as a source of insight.Why do I see God?

The bias that I spoke of earlier has many forms. It is like a protective shield that will make objective truth palatable for your subconscious. Bias can make life better than it is. It can create hope where there is none. It is delusional.

Bias can display itself in the following manner.
Try blocking bias that tells you that the whole thing is not really as it appears...ignore that there are approx 2 trillion galaxies in the visible Universe if you want to comfort yourself...but if you really want to stare into the Abyss with eyes wide open, it will stare back at you.
If I look at my earth space objectively while resisting bias, ....I am suddenly frozen. If I maintain my objective glare , I am spellbound. Then I am frightened, and then I witness my minuscule irrelevance.

If I stay in the objective moment , and realize my realization,....I turn to whatever is out there and I try to feel part of all that. I am looking for my space in that thing that I call God.

Psalm 19
" The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard....."

That is why!

Thanks

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Hello Again

So there you have it!
How do you deal with approx 2 trillion galaxies in the visible Universe? How can you aspire to objectivity ,by ignoring your reality? You are a minuscule irrelevancy in denial.And then they call theists, delusional! That is funny!
Thanks

[Masterblaster]

Hello
Job 37:22 "Fair weather cometh out of the north: with God is terrible majesty. 23Touching the Almighty, we cannot find him out: he is excellent in power, and in judgment, and in plenty of justice: he will not afflict. 24 Men do therefore fear him: he respecteth not any that are wise of heart"

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Thanks 1213, I keep being dragged back to Job.
This old guy, (whoever he was), gets it.....love God with all you have,...just do not over think it! Any knowledge or background to Job would be welcomed here. I find myself using the words of this Biblical Prophet, alot.
Thanks

[Masterblaster]

Hello

"Give us this day, our daily bread"


I concur with Job.
I approach my God on bended knee.
I pray for luck! I pray with optimism. Sometimes I pray with desperation. I never have hopes that are beyond the most fundamental.

I pray for luck!

This is an unfashionable concept in modern Christianity. It suggests that God does not have a proper process, it suggests that God's benevolence is arbitary. It suggests that God is a gamble.This is as it should be. Never presume that anything will go well. Wasn't it Job the optimist who was severely tested by ill-fate. This can visit us all at any time and I pray from my fear, not to be tested by circumstance.

"Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil"

Matthew 26:39 "And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt"

The presumptiousness of modern Christian theological thought, that asks for a seat at God's table is misdirected , in my opinion. God does not cut deals for anyone, and you should not be in it for a deal. God does not have a benchmark for success or failure. That is a ridiculous concept. Do your best!

Matthew 25:14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property. 15 To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away."

Thanks