Money!

[POI]

Otseng states the following: "No, being rich is not bad. We have many rich men in the Bible (Abraham, Joseph, Job, David, Solomon, Matthew, Joseph of Arimathea, etc.) and they were not condemned for being rich."

Otseng, and myself, had a recent discussion about Jesus's mention of the rich. He ultimately expressed the above. In an effort to keep the other topic on track, I'm making this new one.

For debate:

1. Is being 'rich' a relative term, or is it instead objective when Jesus/God identifies you as 'rich'?
2. How do you know if Jesus/God deems you as rich or not?
3. Seems Otseng is saying that being rich can change your focus. Money instead becomes your numero uno, or God. And this is why he tells folks to get rid of it, so they no longer prioritize the money/possessions over God. Is this the gist of it here?
4. If being rich is okay, why did Jesus choose to be "poor"? Or did he even have a choice?
5. Would Jesus rather you be rich or poor, and why? Would he choose for you to instead be poor because he knows you may covet these material possessions over him? If so, isn't being rich worse than being poor, according to Jesus?
6. If being rich is such a high risk for no longer keeping your focus on numero uno, (Jesus), then why do so many Christians strive to become rich?

[TRANSPONDER]

I've been in times when I was struggling to get by - in my early days in London, in the start at lowest rank in my new job. I've been in a position where promotion was like an answered prayer, enabling me to get a house, get married, have a decent life and cash to spare. I've been in a position where the 2010 Crash brought down half the world with it and without family help I might have had to sell up. I was able to recoup and was and am now pretty well off.

I've been near to poverty and near to wealth and I know which one sucks.

I and therefore not stingy for helping those in need, or claiming they are. But the problem is when generosity evoked contempt; they think you are soft and you can be ripped off with cheap flattery and sob stories.

The problem with religion is that it does not give one the option. It does not say 'you are ok for salvation whether you are rich or poor' It says, sell up and follow Jesus.

That's when the religious make excuses and claim it means something else, And I sometimes think I'd rather be poor and honest than Christian.

[1213]

4. If being rich is okay, why did Jesus choose to be "poor"? Or did he even have a choice?

Was he poor? I think poor is a person who lacks something. I don't think Jesus, nor his disciples lacked anything.

And He said to them, When I sent you without a purse, or a wallet, or sandals, did you lack anything? And they said, Nothing.
Luke 22:35

[TRANSPONDER]

4. If being rich is okay, why did Jesus choose to be "poor"? Or did he even have a choice?

Was he poor? I think poor is a person who lacks something. I don't think Jesus, nor his disciples lacked anything.

And He said to them, When I sent you without a purse, or a wallet, or sandals, did you lack anything? And they said, Nothing.
Luke 22:35

Equivocation. Luke also says that the women whor followed them around provided for them (and I'm taking that to mean from their funds), though John talks of a common purse.

But there is no call to go 'fanfic' on this as it is just what the writers imagined without actually having any knowledge, and there's the essence of it. What the Bible says cannot be trusted and is either what the writers guessed was going on or reflected the situation in their church community or what they hoped it should be.

That said, equivocation. Poor in the monetary sense is relative, as a moneybag enough to live on (or off) is one thing; sending the disciples out without a prutah to carry with intent to scrounge of everyone else is another. The church has always loved to get rich on donations of the poor. The equivocation (we finally get to it) is the 'dipper in the wind' idea (1) of 'if you have absolutely nothing more than Gollum had to wear, you have all you need'.

(1) won't be familiar to any outside Chinese Taoism. A story of some Chan Taoist who happily wandered about with nothing. One admirer gave him a dipper to help him scoop up stream water.The savant thanked him, used it, hung it up in a tree and walked off, leaving it there, clattering in the wind.
In the usual way of religio - philosophical lectures, it does not tell the rest. The helper retrieved the dipper and took it back home saying "Last time I give him anything". The Taoist eventually found that river water, a wild strawberry and a nibble of sorrell was not enough to stave off hunger and he fled into the night with a pie that did not belong to him. Unlike Biblio, he was caught and rotted in Jail, and good luck to him.

[POI]

4. If being rich is okay, why did Jesus choose to be "poor"? Or did he even have a choice?

Was he poor? I think poor is a person who lacks something. I don't think Jesus, nor his disciples lacked anything.

And He said to them, When I sent you without a purse, or a wallet, or sandals, did you lack anything? And they said, Nothing.
Luke 22:35

Read the tile of this thread. Did he have a lot of it, or not? Now that we have that straight, that he did not have any money, maybe you can actually answer the question now:

4. If being rich is okay, why did Jesus choose to be "poor"? Or did he even have a choice?

[bjs1]

Without context it is difficult to know your meaning in some cases, so I will answer the questions directly and if you have some deeper context you can fill us in later.

1. Is being 'rich' a relative term, or is it instead objective when Jesus/God identifies you as 'rich'?

Like many other terms (tall, modest, fast, good bowler) the term “rich” is relative, but there also comes a point when virtually everyone would agree that there is some objective truth to the concept.

2. How do you know if Jesus/God deems you as rich or not?

I have found that most people, if they have any level of self-awareness, know if they are rich or not.

3. Seems Otseng is saying that being rich can change your focus. Money instead becomes your numero uno, or God. And this is why he tells folks to get rid of it, so they no longer prioritize the money/possessions over God. Is this the gist of it here?

That is not found in the quote provided here. Perhaps you are looking at context not provided in this thread.

4. If being rich is okay, why did Jesus choose to be "poor"? Or did he even have a choice?

We know neither Jesus financial state nor the motivation behind it.

5. Would Jesus rather you be rich or poor, and why?

I doubt Jesus cares very much. Rich or poor is, so to speak, raw material for the human soul. It is what we do with the condition we are in that matters most to God.

6. If being rich is such a high risk for no longer keeping your focus on numero uno, (Jesus), then why do so many Christians strive to become rich?

Most extremes, like “rich” or “poor,” carry additional dangers with them. If a Christian seeks material wealth over the things of God then that would be a problem. However, since Christians are human I think that most of us can at least understand the temptation.

[POI]

Like many other terms (tall, modest, fast, good bowler) the term “rich” is relative, but there also comes a point when virtually everyone would agree that there is some objective truth to the concept.

So, it's still relative when the Bible deems one "rich" too?

I have found that most people, if they have any level of self-awareness, know if they are rich or not.

Is one's own opinion also no more or less relative than what Jesus himself thinks?

That is not found in the quote provided here. Perhaps you are looking at context not provided in this thread.

Yes, I'm forging ahead to the conclusion. Jesus/God does not want one to worship (money / material objects) above him. (i.e.) - 'Don't let money be your god". Is this what God/Jesus means?

We know neither Jesus financial state nor the motivation behind it.

Okay? Seems he frowns upon having (material wealth and/or money), and never really instead glorifies it?

I doubt Jesus cares very much. Rich or poor is, so to speak, raw material for the human soul. It is what we do with the condition we are in that matters most to God.

I beg to differ. I think he does care. Jesus expresses that the ones with material wealth have a much tougher time achieving THE goal - (which is reaching Heaven).

Most extremes, like “rich” or “poor,” carry additional dangers with them. If a Christian seeks material wealth over the things of God then that would be a problem. However, since Christians are human I think that most of us can at least understand the temptation.

I'd say it would be safe to give away all your material wealth, as it carries a very high risk of taking your complete focus off of numero uno. So why don't you? Why instead save for the future, build wealth, and plan for retirement? Why not just give it all away to the poor, or other?

[benchwarmer]

[Replying to POI in post #1]

The Bible is pretty clear (as clear as can be anyways) on what people should do in regards to money:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ion=NRSVUE

32 “Do not be afraid, little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom. 33 Sell your possessions and give alms. Make purses for yourselves that do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. 34 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ion=NRSVUE

21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be perfect, go, sell your possessions, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.”

The trouble with all of this of course is that then puts the pressure on other people to feed, clothe, and shelter you. It sounds all warm and fuzzy until your stomach starts grumbling and the snow starts falling. At that point you can only put out your hat (or hand) and hope someone else is busy selling their stuff so that they can give you something. It doesn't seem sustainable unless we all live in one large, idealistic co-op where everything is shared equally (and maybe that's not so bad, but hardly realistic).

[Purple Knight]

The trouble with all of this of course is that then puts the pressure on other people to feed, clothe, and shelter you.

Not necessarily. Not if the assumption is that you will not do that, and then die. Or maybe you won't die.

Jesus didn't live in a time where all land was owned. See that fig bush? That's not necessarily in somebody's yard and you can just take from it.

[1213]

4. If being rich is okay, why did Jesus choose to be "poor"?

My answer is, he was not poor, because he had everything he needed.