Jesus is God - Acts 20:28

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Wootah
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Jesus is God - Acts 20:28

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Post by Wootah »

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=ESV

28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.
So we are to pay careful attention and care for the church of God, which He obtained with his own blood.

Isn't it clear that God obtained the church with his own blood?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Jesus is God - Acts 20:28

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Post by 1213 »

Wootah wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 3:14 am
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=ESV

28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.
So we are to pay careful attention and care for the church of God, which He obtained with his own blood.

Isn't it clear that God obtained the church with his own blood?
Wouldn't God's church be His, without obtaining it?

I think that does not mean Jesus is God.

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Re: Jesus is God - Acts 20:28

Post #3

Post by 2timothy316 »

"So keep watch over yourselves and over all the flock which the Holy Spirit has placed in your care. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he made his own through the blood of his Son."

Good News Translation

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=GNT

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Re: Jesus is God - Acts 20:28

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Post by 2timothy316 »

1213 wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 6:48 am
Wootah wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 3:14 am
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=ESV

28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.
So we are to pay careful attention and care for the church of God, which He obtained with his own blood.

Isn't it clear that God obtained the church with his own blood?
Wouldn't God's church be His, without obtaining it?

I think that does not mean Jesus is God.
Legally, mankind's future belonged to sin and eventual death before Jesus' sacrifice because of Adam and Eve handing over mankind to sin. Jesus' perfect life sacrifice pays off the perfect life that Adam lost, legally mankind's future now belongs to Almighty God once more.

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Re: Jesus is God - Acts 20:28

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Post by Wootah »

2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 1:46 pm "So keep watch over yourselves and over all the flock which the Holy Spirit has placed in your care. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he made his own through the blood of his Son."

Good News Translation

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=GNT
Can you show me that in the Greek?

I am not an expert or have access to originals but this website seems to suggest your translation is wrong because your translation has 'of his Son' but it is not there in the Greek.

Without more information I would suggest your translation is incorrect and possibly adding eisegesis in order to avoid the plain meaning: that God made the church with His own blood.

https://biblehub.com/acts/20-28.htm#lexicon
Greek
Keep watch over
Προσέχετε (Prosechete)
Verb - Present Imperative Active - 2nd Person Plural
Strong's 4337: From pros and echo; to hold the mind towards, i.e. Pay attention to, be cautious about, apply oneself to, adhere to.

yourselves
ἑαυτοῖς (heautois)
Reflexive Pronoun - Dative Masculine 3rd Person Plural
Strong's 1438: Himself, herself, itself.

and
καὶ (kai)
Conjunction
Strong's 2532: And, even, also, namely.

the
τῷ (tō)
Article - Dative Neuter Singular
Strong's 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.

entire
παντὶ (panti)
Adjective - Dative Neuter Singular
Strong's 3956: All, the whole, every kind of. Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole.

flock
ποιμνίῳ (poimniō)
Noun - Dative Neuter Singular
Strong's 4168: A little flock. Neuter of a presumed derivative of poimne; a flock, i.e. group.

of
ἐν (en)
Preposition
Strong's 1722: In, on, among. A primary preposition denoting position, and instrumentality, i.e. A relation of rest; 'in, ' at, on, by, etc.

which
ᾧ (hō)
Personal / Relative Pronoun - Dative Neuter Singular
Strong's 3739: Who, which, what, that.

the
τὸ (to)
Article - Nominative Neuter Singular
Strong's 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.

Holy
Ἅγιον (Hagion)
Adjective - Nominative Neuter Singular
Strong's 40: Set apart by (or for) God, holy, sacred. From hagos; sacred.

Spirit
Πνεῦμα (Pneuma)
Noun - Nominative Neuter Singular
Strong's 4151: Wind, breath, spirit.

has made
ἔθετο (etheto)
Verb - Aorist Indicative Middle - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's 5087: To put, place, lay, set, fix, establish. A prolonged form of a primary theo to place.

you
ὑμᾶς (hymas)
Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Accusative 2nd Person Plural
Strong's 4771: You. The person pronoun of the second person singular; thou.

overseers.
ἐπισκόπους (episkopous)
Noun - Accusative Masculine Plural
Strong's 1985: From epi and skopos; a superintendent, i.e. Christian officer in genitive case charge of a church.

Be shepherds
ποιμαίνειν (poimainein)
Verb - Present Infinitive Active
Strong's 4165: To shepherd, tend, herd; hence: I rule, govern. From poimen; to tend as a shepherd of.

of the
τὴν (tēn)
Article - Accusative Feminine Singular
Strong's 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.

church
ἐκκλησίαν (ekklēsian)
Noun - Accusative Feminine Singular
Strong's 1577: From a compound of ek and a derivative of kaleo; a calling out, i.e. a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation.

of God,
Θεοῦ (Theou)
Noun - Genitive Masculine Singular
Strong's 2316: A deity, especially the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very.

which
ἣν (hēn)
Personal / Relative Pronoun - Accusative Feminine Singular
Strong's 3739: Who, which, what, that.

He purchased
περιεποιήσατο (periepoiēsato)
Verb - Aorist Indicative Middle - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's 4046: To acquire, earn, purchase, make my own, preserve alive.

with
διὰ (dia)
Preposition
Strong's 1223: A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through.

[His]
τοῦ (tou)
Article - Genitive Neuter Singular
Strong's 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.

own
ἰδίου (idiou)
Adjective - Genitive Neuter Singular
Strong's 2398: Pertaining to self, i.e. One's own; by implication, private or separate.

blood.
αἵματος (haimatos)
Noun - Genitive Neuter Singular
Strong's 129: Blood, literally, figuratively or specially; by implication, bloodshed, also kindred.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."

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Re: Jesus is God - Acts 20:28

Post #6

Post by 2timothy316 »

Wootah wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 7:28 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 1:46 pm "So keep watch over yourselves and over all the flock which the Holy Spirit has placed in your care. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he made his own through the blood of his Son."

Good News Translation

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=GNT
Can you show me that in the Greek?

I don't speak Greek, I speak English, so why show you in Greek?
Are you Greek to English translation expert? Are you saying that the folks that translated Greek into English for the Bibles below don't know what they are doing? Is belief determining what Acts 20:28 truly says or what Greek experts translate from Greek into modern day English?

There are other translations that use "blood of his Son".
Contemporary English Version
New Revised Standard Version
New English Translation
Lexham English Bible
New Century Version

Instead of asking if I can show you in Greek, you should be asking why these Bibles translated it the way they did into English. I don't think you care but for everyone else's who wants to know the correct Greek to English translation I'm going explain why these Bibles translated it as "the blood of his Son". Get ready....

New International Version
"Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood."
NIV Study Bible (NIV) footnote on Acts 20:28: “his own blood. Lit. ‘the blood of his own one,’ a term of endearment (such as ‘his own dear one’) referring to His own Son.”

And that's it. Pretty simple eh? This why non-bias experts need to translate Bibles from Greek to English and people that have strong bias in their beliefs shouldn't. Because actual experts know about Greek terms of endearment and how they should be translated into English correctly.

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Re: Jesus is God - Acts 20:28

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Post by Difflugia »

Wootah wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 7:28 pmCan you show me that in the Greek?

I am not an expert or have access to originals but this website seems to suggest your translation is wrong because your translation has 'of his Son' but it is not there in the Greek.

Without more information I would suggest your translation is incorrect and possibly adding eisegesis in order to avoid the plain meaning: that God made the church with His own blood.
That's exactly what's going on. The phrase in Greek is διὰ τοῦ αἵματος τοῦ ἰδίου, which literally means "with the blood of [his] own." The word order might more commonly have been διὰ τοῦ ἰδίου αἵματος ("with [his] own blood"), but the way it's written isn't wrong or anything.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

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Re: Jesus is God - Acts 20:28

Post #8

Post by onewithhim »

Difflugia wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 9:57 am
Wootah wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 7:28 pmCan you show me that in the Greek?

I am not an expert or have access to originals but this website seems to suggest your translation is wrong because your translation has 'of his Son' but it is not there in the Greek.

Without more information I would suggest your translation is incorrect and possibly adding eisegesis in order to avoid the plain meaning: that God made the church with His own blood.
That's exactly what's going on. The phrase in Greek is διὰ τοῦ αἵματος τοῦ ἰδίου, which literally means "with the blood of [his] own." The word order might more commonly have been διὰ τοῦ ἰδίου αἵματος ("with [his] own blood"), but the way it's written isn't wrong or anything.
So do we agree now that the verse says "with the blood of his own"? That makes sense when considering hundreds of other scriptures. His own Son shed his blood.

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Re: Jesus is God - Acts 20:28

Post #9

Post by Wootah »

onewithhim wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 5:30 pm
Difflugia wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 9:57 am
Wootah wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 7:28 pmCan you show me that in the Greek?

I am not an expert or have access to originals but this website seems to suggest your translation is wrong because your translation has 'of his Son' but it is not there in the Greek.

Without more information I would suggest your translation is incorrect and possibly adding eisegesis in order to avoid the plain meaning: that God made the church with His own blood.
That's exactly what's going on. The phrase in Greek is διὰ τοῦ αἵματος τοῦ ἰδίου, which literally means "with the blood of [his] own." The word order might more commonly have been διὰ τοῦ ἰδίου αἵματος ("with [his] own blood"), but the way it's written isn't wrong or anything.
So do we agree now that the verse says "with the blood of his own"? That makes sense when considering hundreds of other scriptures. His own Son shed his blood.
Show me the Greek that you are using?

I think the issue you constantly never face is that you have to reconcile scripture inserting not God everywhere in the NT.

Consider the wider paragraph this sentence is taken from:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV
25 “Now I know that none of you among whom I have gone about preaching the kingdom will ever see me again. 26 Therefore, I declare to you today that I am innocent of the blood of any of you. 27 For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God. 28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.
Paul is innocent of their blood. He has preached the whole will of God. Why would he insert 'not God' into this? Paul is not interested in preaching about 'not God'. He didn't change course on the Damascus road to preach 'not God'. He changed course to preach God. It makes no sense for Paul to preach God and insert anything about the blood of 'not God'.

Paul is preaching God in full. Father, Spirit and Son.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Jesus is God - Acts 20:28

Post #10

Post by Difflugia »

onewithhim wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 5:30 pmSo do we agree now that the verse says "with the blood of his own"?
Yes. That's a common possessive/genitive construction in classical Greek.
onewithhim wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 5:30 pmThat makes sense when considering hundreds of other scriptures.
Again, yes. "The x of the y" is a pretty common possessive construction and it appears in hundreds of other scriptures.
onewithhim wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 5:30 pmHis own Son shed his blood.
No. "Son" is neither present in nor implied by the text. Unless you can find "hundreds of other scriptures" where "son" is added by translators, your argument is a non sequitur.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

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