The Fall!

[POI]

Otseng stated "Yes, I believe the fall is a thing. As for why, it is out of scope for the current discussion, but can be addressed later."

Your wish has been granted.

For debate: Outside the claim being made from an ancient human writing, why is the assertion of 'the fall' a real thing?

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #16]

Look at you fighting the weeds in your garden. Keeping snakes out, keeping guard against bad ideas.

Stop taking the fall so seriously .... .

...

Actually that is why the fall is so central. It sits below the foundations of our thoughts. Even the devil does gardening trying to kill off the Messiah.

Look at you reverting to personals about my supposed attitude which you clearly don't get. The whole point is that the 'Fall' is a tall tale. And because it is a tall tale, it is about the natural human condition, not what a god said or did. And because it is about the natural human condition, that is what we should be doing, rather than using an old book of mythology as a guide to anything.

The point is (as so often has to be said about theists or anti -atheists at least) it isn'tall about you. The Fall may not be doctrine to you but it is to half the voting populace of the USA. They believe in redemption by Jesus' crucifixion form a Sin -law imposed by God for what is described in Genesis, whether one treats it as metaphor. If you don't understand this, you have nothing of value to say here.

If you wanted to talk about Jung (who is a bit out of date since DNA explained a lot of his apparently magical collective unconscious), then the psychology forum is appropriate, not the religion forum.

Of course, if you tried to use psychobabble as a way of validating religion, much as Bible apologists use quantum -woo to try to make a case for God, that is a whole new thread, not this one.

[Wootah]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #16]

Look at you fighting the weeds in your garden. Keeping snakes out, keeping guard against bad ideas.

Stop taking the fall so seriously .... .

...

Actually that is why the fall is so central. It sits below the foundations of our thoughts. Even the devil does gardening trying to kill off the Messiah.

Look at you reverting to personals about my supposed attitude which you clearly don't get. The whole point is that the 'Fall' is a tall tale. And because it is a tall tale, it is about the natural human condition, not what a god said or did. And because it is about the natural human condition, that is what we should be doing, rather than using an old book of mythology as a guide to anything.

The point is (as so often has to be said about theists or anti -atheists at least) it isn'tall about you. The Fall may not be doctrine to you but it is to half the voting populace of the USA. They believe in redemption by Jesus' crucifixion form a Sin -law imposed by God for what is described in Genesis, whether one treats it as metaphor. If you don't understand this, you have nothing of value to say here.

If you wanted to talk about Jung (who is a bit out of date since DNA explained a lot of his apparently magical collective unconscious), then the psychology forum is appropriate, not the religion forum.

Of course, if you tried to use psychobabble as a way of validating religion, much as Bible apologists use quantum -woo to try to make a case for God, that is a whole new thread, not this one.

I read what I wrote and read what you wrote and don't see how you are not connecting things.

You are rejecting what I say, that is gardening, keeping out snakes and weeds.

By doing this you can now see that the fall narrative underpins everything.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #16]

Look at you fighting the weeds in your garden. Keeping snakes out, keeping guard against bad ideas.

Stop taking the fall so seriously .... .

...

Actually that is why the fall is so central. It sits below the foundations of our thoughts. Even the devil does gardening trying to kill off the Messiah.

Look at you reverting to personals about my supposed attitude which you clearly don't get. The whole point is that the 'Fall' is a tall tale. And because it is a tall tale, it is about the natural human condition, not what a god said or did. And because it is about the natural human condition, that is what we should be doing, rather than using an old book of mythology as a guide to anything.

The point is (as so often has to be said about theists or anti -atheists at least) it isn'tall about you. The Fall may not be doctrine to you but it is to half the voting populace of the USA. They believe in redemption by Jesus' crucifixion form a Sin -law imposed by God for what is described in Genesis, whether one treats it as metaphor. If you don't understand this, you have nothing of value to say here.

If you wanted to talk about Jung (who is a bit out of date since DNA explained a lot of his apparently magical collective unconscious), then the psychology forum is appropriate, not the religion forum.

Of course, if you tried to use psychobabble as a way of validating religion, much as Bible apologists use quantum -woo to try to make a case for God, that is a whole new thread, not this one.

I read what I wrote and read what you wrote and don't see how you are not connecting things.

You are rejecting what I say, that is gardening, keeping out snakes and weeds.

By doing this you can now see that the fall narrative underpins everything.

Complete rewrite. Sorry. I confused you with William.

But that said (after I had to go out) I stand by this repose as relevant to your post.

The point is (as so often has to be said about theists or anti -atheists at least) it isn't all about you. The Fall may not be doctrine to you but it is to half the voting populace of the USA. They believe in redemption by Jesus' crucifixion form a Sin -law imposed by God for what is described in Genesis, whether one treats it as metaphor. If you don't understand this, you have nothing of value to say here.

[William]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #23]

you have nothing of value to say here

Of "value" to "whom" and why do you claim such?

The Fall may not be doctrine to you but it is to half the voting populace of the USA. They believe in redemption by Jesus' crucifixion form a Sin -law imposed by God for what is described in Genesis, whether one treats it as metaphor...

...If you wanted to talk about Jung (who is a bit out of date since DNA explained a lot of his apparently magical collective unconscious), then the psychology forum is appropriate, not the religion forum.

What does politics have to do with the thread topic? You are telling me Psychology "belongs" in another forum, but why the double standard? Politics also "belongs" in another forum.

And regardless of what we "know" about DNA et al, this in itself does no negate the insights of JA. Certainly you have offered no evidence to support your "claim" (statement of opinion).

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #23]

you have nothing of value to say here

Of "value" to "whom" and why do you claim such?

The Fall may not be doctrine to you but it is to half the voting populace of the USA. They believe in redemption by Jesus' crucifixion form a Sin -law imposed by God for what is described in Genesis, whether one treats it as metaphor...

...If you wanted to talk about Jung (who is a bit out of date since DNA explained a lot of his apparently magical collective unconscious), then the psychology forum is appropriate, not the religion forum.

What does politics have to do with the thread topic? You are telling me Psychology "belongs" in another forum, but why the double standard? Politics also "belongs" in another forum.

And regardless of what we "know" about DNA et al, this in itself does no negate the insights of JA. Certainly you have offered no evidence to support your "claim" (statement of opinion).

Because of the relevance to religion - the forum topic. Psychology - the working of the brain - is a biological matter, and not metaphysical, let alone religious. And if that is an opinion of mine, it is at least as valid as any metaphysical or supernatural aspect and maybe better, as has been shown in any Morality discussions.
I don't discuss politics as such, but I do observe, rather keenly, how religion interferes in politics, and very much so,just now. Take for instance if I muttered about how Ken Ham would only hire professing Creationist Christians to work on his Ark. That is not a discussion of worker rights or equality legislation, bu of how religious privilege gets into society.

[William]

While we all wait for any atheist to provide the evidence that that confirms that the intrinsic workings of the human mind has nothing to with "metaphysics, mythology, God, et al" ... I shall proceed with unpacking the theistic mythologies within the framework of JA.

[Wootah]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #23]

Well I think I have said what I want to say.

Bible is real. Jesus died for our sins and ultimately solves the fall rejoining heaven and earth.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #23]

Well I think I have said what I want to say.

Bible is real. Jesus died for our sins and ultimately solves the fall rejoining heaven and earth.

Run away shouting "I win" all you like.
I hall continue to say,claim, post and argue that the Bible is not credible and demonstrably so, but materialist 'science' evidence is credible, reliable and demonstrable, and it provides the validated database of information that atheists rely on rather that Bibleclaims and misrepresenting science to try to discredit it.

So, the evidence is, we evolved, and consciousness, instincts (selfish and co -operative alike) and survival adaptations along with it. This explains what is felt to be good and bad, which is not by any means seen the same way, and inceasingly complex society required moral codes, of which the Biblical was pretty late. 600 BC is epigraphy is correct.

The Fall is a silly fairy tale to try to blame humans for the flawsin God's creation, and - worse - a human sacrifice had to be imagined in order to find a way out, and a whole religion had grown out of that.

[Wootah]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #28]

And in the context of this thread your actions show a metaphysical agreement with the symbolism of the fall narrative.

You are gardening, weeding out bad ideas and killing any snakes you see.

I don't have anything to add is all I meant. Of course I'll try to read new posts and reply if I can but right now we are circling.

Generally speaking, a good faith actor needs to demonstrate some recognition of when the Bible at least accidentally gets things right.

It feels like you would argue that you dont exist if the Bible said you did.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #28]

And in the context of this thread your actions show a metaphysical agreement with the symbolism of the fall narrative.

You are gardening, weeding out bad ideas and killing any snakes you see.

I don't have anything to add is all I meant. Of course I'll try to read new posts and reply if I can but right now we are circling.

Generally speaking, a good faith actor needs to demonstrate some recognition of when the Bible at least accidentally gets things right.

It feels like you would argue that you dont exist if the Bible said you did.

I can't help about your misunderstanding of me, if not deliberate misrepresentation. I have followed the evidence every time, because, as one of the hellbound satanspawn, I cannot afford to be caught out lying, deceiving or fiddling the evidence. I have no '"Hey, what do a few untruths matter, if some souls are saved?" fallback. I have argued that I think Jesus was real and the crucifixion happened. Because of the evidence. If I could be shown to be falsifying the Bible, science or indeed, logic, I have no doubt I would be jumped on very eagerly. So don't presume to sling a kneejerk (which gets you an extra few inches) accusation of bias at me. It is just so darn easy for the biased to dish out accusations of bias. Almost an acquired instinct, one might say.