The Fall!

[POI]

Otseng stated "Yes, I believe the fall is a thing. As for why, it is out of scope for the current discussion, but can be addressed later."

Your wish has been granted.

For debate: Outside the claim being made from an ancient human writing, why is the assertion of 'the fall' a real thing?

[POI]

If you were raped and robbed, you’d expect others to agree it was WRONG. You’d not expect some to say it wasn’t wrong. This you don’t see.

Numbers 31:17 - 18
So kill all the boys and all the women who have had intercourse with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

Was this genocide and rape wrong, or should I expect you to say it wasn't wrong?

This sort of expectation is what comes of knowing nothing about war and what war meant in those days. I suspect you guys think war between peoples then (just heard about the dreaded Comanches who regularly committed genocide as their war practice) was like Risk. After confrontations everyone just picked up their pieces and went home.

The Romans, for example, burned resistance cities to the ground, crucified inhabitants or made them all slaves to a man. No young healthy female was allowed to become anyone’s wife. And that’s westerners in Europe.

The problem is you atheists are woefully ignorant of how nations fought and accepted war practices (winner takes all). Some of the nations the Hebrews fought used to sneak up and kill the pregnant women. But that’s of no concern. But the Israelites were supposed to
let them be neighbors.

So it’s not easy dealing with willful ignorance and a desire to malign. It’s rather pointless. There’s a strong desire to remain blind and no desire to learn in many atheists.

Seems you have answered Clownboat's question in the way he figured you would, Meaning, you "say it wasn't wrong." "Murder and rape" are not so, if the God of the Bible orders them. It's also apparently so, that the God of the Bible can do no better than that of the simple revenge of the primitive man of the age. Sure, God has the power to change hearts and bend the rules, as needed. But why do any of that when he can also order some murder and rape, just like any other human could.

[Mae von H]

If you were raped and robbed, you’d expect others to agree it was WRONG. You’d not expect some to say it wasn’t wrong. This you don’t see.

Numbers 31:17 - 18
So kill all the boys and all the women who have had intercourse with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

Was this genocide and rape wrong, or should I expect you to say it wasn't wrong?

This sort of expectation is what comes of knowing nothing about war and what war meant in those days. I suspect you guys think war between peoples then (just heard about the dreaded Comanches who regularly committed genocide as their war practice) was like Risk. After confrontations everyone just picked up their pieces and went home.

The Romans, for example, burned resistance cities to the ground, crucified inhabitants or made them all slaves to a man. No young healthy female was allowed to become anyone’s wife. And that’s westerners in Europe.

The problem is you atheists are woefully ignorant of how nations fought and accepted war practices (winner takes all). Some of the nations the Hebrews fought used to sneak up and kill the pregnant women. But that’s of no concern. But the Israelites were supposed to
let them be neighbors.

So it’s not easy dealing with willful ignorance and a desire to malign. It’s rather pointless. There’s a strong desire to remain blind and no desire to learn in many atheists.

Seems you have answered Clownboat's question in the way he figured you would, Meaning, you "say it wasn't wrong." "Murder and rape" are not so, if the God of the Bible orders them. It's also apparently so, that the God of the Bible can do no better than that of the simple revenge of the primitive man of the age. Sure, God has the power to change hearts and bend the rules, as needed. But why do any of that when he can also order some murder and rape, just like any other human could.

INCORRECT!!! Clownboat suffers from binary thinking, either wrong or right and no other responses are possible. Take slavery. I’m sure your response is “slavery or servitude is wrong period and should be outlawed!!” The idea that a man or woman might prefer servitude to homelessness and starvation doesn’t occur to them. The fact that men and women essentially sold themselves into slavery for a time in exchange for passage to the new world eludes his understanding. Slavery chosen openly to gain a better life. You guys would cry "wrong" and say they had better starve in Europe.

I described how wars were conducted by others and pointed out that the law for Israelites was SUPERIOR. It’s like the Geneva convention where you would say in black and white “war should be outlawed period” instead of recognizing that war occurs and they want to reduce human suffering. No, you guys just have two words, “wrong or right.” It’s a very simplistic and naive view. It is like there is only right and wrong and never better or worse or improvements.

Btw, T and CB are abusive in their choice of adjectives. That’s wrong! If they are so against wrong, why do they engage in it?

[POI]

INCORRECT!!! Clownboat suffers from binary thinking, either wrong or right and no other responses are possible. Take slavery. I’m sure your response is “slavery or servitude is wrong period and should be outlawed!!” The idea that a man or woman might prefer servitude to homelessness and starvation doesn’t occur to them. The fact that men and women essentially sold themselves into slavery for a time in exchange for passage to the new world eludes his understanding. Slavery chosen openly to gain a better life. You guys would cry "wrong" and say they had better starve in Europe.

Then you obviously have not read my take on the topic of Biblical slavery. Hint, there is a stark difference between indentured servitude and chattel slavery. However, the Bible still sanctions both.

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... &start=200

Or, post 3830 from http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... start=4050

I described how wars were conducted by others and pointed out that the law for Israelites was SUPERIOR. It’s like the Geneva convention where you would say in black and white “war should be outlawed period” instead of recognizing that war occurs and they want to reduce human suffering. No, you guys just have two words, “wrong or right.” It’s a very simplistic and naive view. It is like there is only right and wrong and never better or worse or improvements.

Btw, T and CB are abusive in their choice of adjectives. That’s wrong! If they are so against wrong, why do they engage in it?

I'm not placing it in a binary position between right and wrong. Maybe the tribe who won was deserving? I'm instead asking why God could do no better than what humans would already do completely on their own? It's almost as if these folks were doing what they were going to already do, which is to kill all the enemies, and keep the female virgins for themselves. Simply stating this is what God commanded just 'certifies' their actions as 'good'. I'm wondering why a God, in his infinite love, wisdom, and power, would not advise settlement of the dispute by differing means? These ancient warriors already desired to do what they did do, on their own accord. Taking virgins was the grand prize.

[William]

[Replying to William in post #50]

To Continue.

Examining the role of God in the creation of Eve and Adam's sense of loneliness offers insights into themes of companionship, fulfillment, and the relationship between the individual and the divine within the biblical narrative. Let's delve deeper into this aspect:

God's Role in the Creation of Eve and Adam's Loneliness:
1. God as the Creator and Authority Figure:
• Archetype: The Creator or The Wise Old Man
• Explanation: God occupies the archetype of the Creator or the Wise Old Man, representing the divine source of existence and wisdom in the biblical narrative. As the creator of Adam and Eve, God holds authority over their lives and destinies.
• God's decision to create Eve stems from his recognition of Adam's sense of loneliness and incompleteness. Despite Adam's communion with God and the creatures of the Garden, there remains a void within him that cannot be filled by external relationships alone.
• This archetype reflects humanity's longing for connection and fulfillment, as well as the recognition of divine wisdom and guidance in addressing the existential challenges of loneliness and longing.

2. Adam's Loneliness and the Old Man Archetype:
• Archetype: The Wise Old Man or The Mentor
• Explanation: Adam experiences a sense of loneliness and incompleteness despite his communion with God, symbolizing the human longing for companionship and fulfillment beyond the confines of the self.
• The Old Man archetype, represented by God, serves as a mentor and guide to Adam, providing wisdom and guidance. However, Adam's loneliness persists, indicating that the fulfillment of his psyche requires a complementary aspect that transcends the masculine archetype alone.
• This archetype reflects humanity's quest for wholeness and integration, as well as the recognition that true fulfillment comes from the harmonious union of opposites within the self.

3. The Creation of Eve as Complement to Adam:
• Archetype: The Anima or The Other
• Explanation: God's decision to create Eve from Adam's rib represents the emergence of the Anima or the Other within Adam's psyche, symbolizing the integration of feminine energies and the completion of his being.
• Eve's creation fulfills Adam's longing for companionship and connection, providing him with a counterpart and complement. Together, Adam and Eve embody the union of opposites and the balance of masculine and feminine energies within the human psyche.
• This archetype reflects humanity's quest for unity and wholeness, as well as the recognition that true fulfillment comes from the integration and harmonization of dualities within the self and relationships with others.

In summary, God's role in the creation of Eve addresses Adam's sense of loneliness and incompleteness by providing him with a complementary counterpart. Through the creation of Eve, Adam experiences fulfillment and companionship, illustrating the divine wisdom in recognizing and addressing the existential challenges of the human condition.

[Clownboat]

This sort of expectation is what comes of knowing nothing about war and what war meant in those days. I suspect you guys think war between peoples then (just heard about the dreaded Comanches who regularly committed genocide as their war practice) was like Risk. After confrontations everyone just picked up their pieces and went home.

The Romans, for example, burned resistance cities to the ground, crucified inhabitants or made them all slaves to a man. No young healthy female was allowed to become anyone’s wife. And that’s westerners in Europe.

The problem is you atheists are woefully ignorant of how nations fought and accepted war practices (winner takes all). Some of the nations the Hebrews fought used to sneak up and kill the pregnant women. But that’s of no concern. But the Israelites were supposed to
let them be neighbors.

So it’s not easy dealing with willful ignorance and a desire to malign. It’s rather pointless. There’s a strong desire to remain blind and no desire to learn in many atheists.

How quickly you forget your own words!
Mae von H said: "If you were raped and robbed, you’d expect others to agree it was WRONG. You’d not expect some to say it wasn’t wrong."

And here you are, justifying rape and genocide because you want a religion to belong to. Shame on you!

Rape and genocide are wrong, no matter if its the Comanches or the ancient Hebrews. Yup, even if mother earth told the Comanche shamans that it wanted the neighboring tribes destroyed, it's still wrong.

Therefore...
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. Lucius Annaeus Seneca.

This is your problem and it is funny to watch you try to blame your issues on atheists, but sadly, that is one of the main mechanism of your religion that makes it so terribly divisive. Yup, a religion claimed to be built on love, but in actuality, this division is a mechanism used by your religion to then have something in common for the group to unite against (like those evil atheists ). This is common cult behavior by the way as it provides unity for the group. Luckily for you though, you belong to the one true cult with the one true living god concept. So when your group committed genocide and rape, it wasn't wrong.

[Clownboat]

Btw, T and CB are abusive in their choice of adjectives. That’s wrong! If they are so against wrong, why do they engage in it?

Please show that you speak the truth. Perhaps I owe you an apology?

Owning humans as though they are property is still wrong though. Even if your god concept orders it. It's wrong no matter what god concept is claimed to have ordered it.

Thus the irony of your words: "If you were raped and robbed, you’d expect others to agree it was WRONG. You’d not expect some to say it wasn’t wrong. This you don’t see."

Hebrew soldier: Now that I have entered your home and killed your father and mother, I'm here to rescue you, if your a virgin that is! I know, I know, no need to thank me. Perhaps you will respect and start worshiping my god concept now? Well, you better, or I just might beat you. Not to death though, that would be against what we claim my god concepts allows.

[William]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #56]

Owning humans as though they are property is still wrong though. Even if your god concept orders it. It's wrong no matter what god concept is claimed to have ordered it.

Please explain/show why this is "wrong".

If I thought such were "wrong" I would find myself in conflict with the truth of the situation we are all in as human beings. We are all the property of the systems which we allow to rule over us.

All those "systems" be they political, cultural, religious or scientific are overridden/overseen/umbrellaed by an overarching rule-set which allows for us to be regarded (to regard ourselves) as the property of said systems either subtly (voting/democracy) or openly (non-democratic) and who among us think this is "wrong"?

Granted, some theists go on about how wrong it is, but why would atheists have a problem with being owned as property? Why do people believe it is "wrong" - "no matter what god concept is claimed to have ordered it"?

Perhaps it has to do with the idea of being owned by a god-concept? Perhaps it is "okay" as long as no god is doing it?

[Mae von H]

Btw, T and CB are abusive in their choice of adjectives. That’s wrong! If they are so against wrong, why do they engage in it?

Please show that you speak the truth. Perhaps I owe you an apology?

That’s handsome of you. I will notify you next time. Agreed?

Owning humans as though they are property is still wrong though.

Even if the subject prefers life long service in exchange for life long care? Starving on the street is the only “right” solution? Because this is what ancient Israelites offered the destitute. For you, that is wrong. I disagree.

Even if your god concept orders it. It's wrong no matter what god concept is claimed to have ordered it.

Please show me where God ordered it. Needs to be an order, not provision in the event. “Something like “thou must have slaves” not “slaves have these rights and you are not to be a slave trader but since slavery is real, these are the limits of what you can do.”

I suppose you believe all nations that signed the Geneva Convention ordered wars, right?

Thus the irony of your words: "If you were raped and robbed, you’d expect others to agree it was WRONG. You’d not expect some to say it wasn’t wrong. This you don’t see."

Where’s the irony? The poster thought no people ever agree on right or wrong. I pointed out where they do. What irony?

Hebrew soldier: Now that I have entered your home and killed your father and mother, I'm here to rescue you, if your a virgin that is! I know, I know, no need to thank me.

Do you what armies have done to females in cities they conquered? None of them took the women promising to work and care for them the rest of their lives. The women were left to care for themselves and any bastard children. Do you not see the Israelite version is superior? Is killing all the enemy superior? There is no killing the enemy in war, right. Or do you expect no one dies in war?

Perhaps you will respect and start worshiping my god concept now? Well, you better, or I just might beat you. Not to death though, that would be against what we claim my god concepts allows.

Huh? This is so full of error it’s hard to address. You simply have some kind of fantasy view of war. Do you think it’s like playing RISK?

[Mae von H]

This sort of expectation is what comes of knowing nothing about war and what war meant in those days. I suspect you guys think war between peoples then (just heard about the dreaded Comanches who regularly committed genocide as their war practice) was like Risk. After confrontations everyone just picked up their pieces and went home.

The Romans, for example, burned resistance cities to the ground, crucified inhabitants or made them all slaves to a man. No young healthy female was allowed to become anyone’s wife. And that’s westerners in Europe.

The problem is you atheists are woefully ignorant of how nations fought and accepted war practices (winner takes all). Some of the nations the Hebrews fought used to sneak up and kill the pregnant women. But that’s of no concern. But the Israelites were supposed to
let them be neighbors.

So it’s not easy dealing with willful ignorance and a desire to malign. It’s rather pointless. There’s a strong desire to remain blind and no desire to learn in many atheists.

How quickly you forget your own words!
Mae von H said: "If you were raped and robbed, you’d expect others to agree it was WRONG. You’d not expect some to say it wasn’t wrong."

The rules of war totally escape you don’t they? I’m convinced you think war is like playing risk. Soldiers who kill are “murderers” same as any city crime. War makes no difference to you.

And here you are, justifying rape and genocide because you want a religion to belong to. Shame on you!

There you are, lying about me. Shame on you!!

Rape and genocide are wrong, no matter if it’s the Comanches or the ancient Hebrews. Yup, even if mother earth told the Comanche shamans that it wanted the neighboring tribes destroyed, it's still wrong.

Choosing a woman to be your wife is not rape. Or do you think marriage is an excuse for rape?

Therefore...
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. Lucius Annaeus Seneca.

Quoting a man who was prejudically ignorant.

This is your problem and it is funny to watch you try to blame your issues on atheists, but sadly, that is one of the main mechanism of your religion that makes it so terribly divisive. Yup, a religion claimed to be built on love, but in actuality, this division is a mechanism used by your religion to then have something in common for the group to unite against (like those evil atheists ). This is common cult behavior by the way as it provides unity for the group. Luckily for you though, you belong to the one true cult with the one true living god concept. So when your group committed genocide and rape, it wasn't wrong.

Full of personal insults. Didn’t have to wait long.

[Mae von H]

It could be said that it’s hard to understand the hue and cry against the restrictions God placed on slavery in an age where slavery was common, rampant and usually cruel, but not really. They foolishly think people often beat their slaves so they couldn’t work. They decry making a capture woman your wife with all rights instead what other nations did. Yet the place where they live does nothing at all for women raped. Nothing. And yet they take the high moral ground.